Ideally, you’d want to optimize the response and support to the individual person, but that requires skill and experience, along with knowledge of available options. That’s the work of professionals, not amateurs.
In some cases it is correct to say that I want to make the pain go away. HOWEVER, I also have depression. I have looked into the abyss more than once, unafraid. I’ve attempted suicide twice, each time I was found in time and was hospitalized. I managed to claw my way back up from the abyss. But, when I was going through with it, I WANTED TO DIE!!] I was convinced that I was nothing but a burden, that I contributed nothing to society and that I would be doing society a favor by bowing out. I still mourn the person I was, that could do sports and run up stairs and eat most foods easily so long as there were no peanuts. I need help now to do everyday things more days than I care to admit. The abyss doesn’t scare me, and yes I do find that strange and concerning. What I find most scary is the time I was past suicidal ideations, I was so depressed that I didn’t even bother to try suicide because I was convinced that I would fail at it and wind up being even more of a burden because of the permanent injuries I’d cause myself. That was a much longer recovery, and it involved going through suicidal ideations as I got better. Self centered and selfish aren’t the same thing.
Then perhaps you shouldn’t be lecturing people who have felt that way.
Ah, the old “you haven’t been there so you aren’t entitled to an opinion” argument.
There’s a difference between having an opinion, and sprouting said opinion from the rooftops, especially if you’re doing so at people who have a little more knowledge of the subject, and personal experience with it, than you have.
And I’m sure you know that.
Having been pretty close myself I can say that the emotional pain is unimaginable and unbelievable. And the brain is another organ which, given the right chemical imbalances and other circumstances, can fail. A sufficiently depressed person committing suicide is no more selfish than someone having a fatal heart attack.
A colleague of mine in the military killed himself 30 years ago so I know what it feels like to survive a buddy’s suicide; being suicidal feels infinitely worse.
Our society’s views of mental health also have to change. You can have all the PSAs in the world saying that it gets better and all the lip service to mental health but I just don’t believe we’re there yet.
I’m out of that crisis myself and I would never, ever judge a suicide attempt because I know just how awful it is.
What “rooftops”?
I’m posting on a message board with falling participation that is getting more obscure by the week, and in only a single thread of that. I’m hardly broadcasting here.
Again, it comes down to my viewpoint isn’t popular and some disagree with it, therefore I should not be permitted to speak of it or even have it.
As for personal experience - I have plenty as someone affected by the suicide of another. Multiple others, in fact. Don’t diss my experience and I won’t diss yours.
I get it. I sincerely hope you’re doing better.
As an addendum, I’ll say that my postpartum experience and having a newborn in general drove home to me how critical it is for my mental health that I get sleep (and was a major factor in our decision not to have another.) When people are struggling mentally, sleep is one of the first things to go, and I’m increasingly convinced that sleep deprivation can be the tipping point for these kinds of catastrophic actions. Lately as I’m going through a spate of PTSD, I’ve put sleep above everything else, including my job. There are days I worked from home just to get a full night’s rest.
I’m aware not everyone can sleep. I have a long history of insomnia so believe me, I get it. But if you can, if you have any ability to build sleep hygiene into your life, please, do it. Don’t wait until you are overwhelmed. Consider it a preventative measure.
That’s why I’ve decided to start signing off at 9:30pm. Until tomorrow, folks.
I think a hypothetical right to suicide is similar to the right for an abortion. My body, my choice, eh? Although I think it’s easier to think of suicides that are extremely selfish, aborting your fetus can also sometimes be described as selfish, especially if you have easy ways to give your child away and the pregnancy is (biologically) safe without causing undue hardship to the mother. One example of a possible selfish abortion would be if your spouse, parent etc very much disagrees with your choice to abort and would be extremely upset by it. Another would be when a woman was planning a long and roudy holiday party cruise 7-8 months from when they got pregnant and they really don’t want to be burdened by a late stage pregnancy during that time as it would totally ruin their holiday so they abort.
So while suicide might (often) be selfish, so what? That ultimately depends on how much the feelings of those left behind matter, which should be evaluated case by case. Sometimes they don’t matter much, other times, like when you are the sole breadwinner in a relationship with child dependents, they matter a lot more. This means that even if suicide, just like abortion, is something you have always have right to do (as long as the chosen method doesn’t cause additional unnecessary harm), not all reasons for a suicide or abortion are morally equal.
I find your inability to recognize that “loss of life” is a consequence to be utterly inexplicable.
Furthermore, we find ourselves in the appalling state where very large chucks of society are too soft-headed to hold murderers accountable for their actions. Therefore, whenever a murderer self-inflicts the death penalty by committing suicide, that’s a win-win in my book. The murderer is punished, and the taxpayers do not need to pay the expense of a nearly-useless trial.
There was a woman in my “new mom” group who had a somewhat similar experience. She had trouble nursing, and the baby cried, and she didn’t get any sleep, because she kept trying to nurse it. And because she was so sleep deprived, she didn’t realize just how bad everything was. Things were going downhill when her mother arrived, and dragged them both the the hospital. The baby was dehydrated, but they gave it some IV fluids and sent it home with the grandmother. The mom was admitted, because she was psychotic. After two nights being able to sleep without a demanding baby crying, she was released.
Her milk never did come in, but fortunately we live in an age where excellent baby formula is plentiful. She and the baby both did fine. But it’s lucky her mom arrived when she did.
Let me tell you how your opinion strikes me. It makes me feel judged by you. Judged and found wanting. It makes me feel like my emotional pain is not important and my needs aren’t as important as your needs. (Having chronic physical pain is a cause of depression.) If I were in the middle of suicidal ideations, your sentiments would add weight to the “I give nothing to society, I am nothing but a burden! I need to put a stop to this cycle.” ideas already in my head. I would feel bad for even considering suicide, but it wouldn’t make me not want to do so. Quite the opposite. This is why I spoke up.
I was told that I should consider two things before sharing my opinion. Does it help? Does it harm? I was told to choose whether to speak up based on the answers to those two questions.
Thank you! It’s a hour by hour thing many days. I have a tentative diagnosis of enteropathic arthritis. I’ve been saying for years it feels like my immune system is eating me alive. I’m ANA positive. (Anti-nuclear autoantibodies.) I have ulcerative colitis, bouts of diverticulitis, and IBS. (I also have endometriosis and osteoarthritis in my big joints. Also fibromyalgia.) My dad had Ankylosing Spondylitis, and I’ve tested positive for HLA-B27. The rheumatologist wants to start me on Humira. I’m not sure of that at this moment because of the pandemic.
A long time ago we had a poster Liberal / Libertarian. Very prolific, highly opinionated, to the point of making up new opinions on the fly, all in the name of One-upmanship, Whataboutism and what have you. He almost always managed to make any thread be about him. It wasn’t so much a question of derailing as laying a totally new track.
@Broomstick: you don’t need to fill that vacancy.
It doesn’t help that our current society does not value sleep. I know too many people who brag about how little sleep they get by on, and I don’t think it helps them at all.
When I had a problem with insomnia a few years ago - as in, only able to sleep a few hours every 2nd or 3rd day - I sought professional help for it. With me it wasn’t so much depression as being unable to function in other ways, like my coordination being on par with someone drunk (It was bad enough I had a friend drive me to the professional help as I no longer felt safe behind the wheel). I got that straightened out and I’m back to sleeping a normal amount every night, but I really think too many people don’t realize just how badly sleep deprivation affects them.
Lack of sleep definitely messes with your mental state. It will hit different people differently, but it can be extremely serious and if you’re already in a bad place it will only make it worse.
An interesting take. I don’t entirely agree with it, but an interesting take.
I do think you disregard/minimize the impact “giving a child away” can have on the mother. There is a psychological component to that which, although I have not experienced it personally, is pretty large.
I don’t think suicide is a “right” so much as something that in most cases you can’t stop if the person is truly determined and careful how they go about it.
I’m opposed to the death penalty - I guess I’m down on killing people in general. That doesn’t make me “soft-headed” as I’m totally for keeping people dangerous to society/others locked up until they are no longer a threat, and in some cases that means locked up for life. Which, by the way, on average is a cheaper option than death penalty cases because “locked up for life” tends to have fewer appeals and therefore lower court costs overall.
I’m sorry you feel that way.
Funny - that’s often how I feel when I’m told I should STFU and never ever speak my mind anywhere or any time. Funny, that’s how I feel when I’m told that my pain is nowhere near as important as the suicide’s and I shouldn’t feel the way I do and go along with other people hurting me without a protest because they are in pain.
Yes, suicidal people are in pain. Pain that, apparently, I can’t imagine it’s so bad. But don’t ignore the pain that a successful suicide cause in other people. That’s what I feel a lot of people do, or tell survivors that their pain is bad, or they shouldn’t express it, because that might hurt other suicidal people. Great, so I should STFU and suffer in silence - what a minute, isn’t that the very same thing you’re saying we shouldn’t do to suffering people?
Yes. Having lived 30 years with someone in chronic pain I’m aware of that. But not everyone with chronic pain and/or depression becomes suicidal. In fact, my late spouse lived in terror in his final weeks that someone else would mercy kill him. Different people react differently.
So… you don’t approve of my opinion so I should STFU and never ever speak of it. Bury MY pain and never discuss it. Screw me, it doesn’t matter if it helps me or not, you don’t approve so I should disappear. It’s all about the suicide, I don’t matter. That’s how YOUR words feel to me.
I feel like there’s a contradiction in here somewhere, as I seek to infer your meaning (as opposed to whatever meaning you mean to impute on @Zabali_Clawbane). On the one hand, there’s expressing your views publicly, sharing YOUR pain and discussing it, even as your understand your views, your expression of pain might hurt others (would it be safe to say you don’t think you’re being selfish in doing so?), but then there is your view on suicide (that hurts other people, so it’s selfish, right?).
I would agree that suicide is selfish as long as we are using selfish in the broader sense, where I am doing something just for me. I mean the sense of selfish where making myself a coffee is selfish.
It’s not inherently a dick move, it depends on the circumstances.
The guy mentioned in the OP is of course a monster, and the suicide to avoid the consequences was just one part of that.
It’s interesting, in that “death as the ultimate punishment” seems to be a standard part of American culture. The bad guy always dies in the end, they never go to jail (unless a sequel is planned with the same baddie). Personally, it always bugs me, I’d much rather the bad guy had to face up to what he / she did.
I don’t support the death penalty. Like Mijin I’d rather see someone face up to their actions in a court of law. Given the facts of the case, it seems unlikely this guy would have walked.