I recently had DNA analysis done by 23andme.com, and the only real ancestry surprise is that apparently my great-grandfather who emigrated from Germany in 1859 was ethnically Ashkenazi. I have no idea if he or his ancestors were Jewish, but that seems to be the likelihood from what I can find out.
The 23andme site is not very expansive on what this ethnicity means except that his ancestors came from central Europe (eastern Germany and Poland, mostly). My paternal haplogroup is J2, which potentially matches that ethnicity, among others.
I would like to know more; Wikipedia is not very helpful. Does anyone else have any insight, or ideas for resources?
Roddy
Ashkenazi means “Eastern European Jew” so yes, very very likely you have Jewish ancestors. It might simply mean you have a Y chromosome heavily associated with the Ashkenazi.
As for what it means on a practical level - not a whole lot, really, unless the Nazis come back into power.
Odd. How did they know it was your great-grandfather - or are you assuming that he’s the only one taht fits the bill for “general ethnic area/fit”?
Yes, Ashkenazi means jewish heritage/anscestry from central/eastern europe IIRC, a group that pretty much married within itself (for obvious reasons, given the time and attitudes).
As the above posters said, Ashkenazi Jewish basically means you’re of European Jewish origins.
Genetic analysis reveals that Ashkenazi Jews are Middle Eastern in ancestry, with significant Italian contribution. Ashkenazi Y-DNA, or paternal ancestry, is around 80% Middle Eastern. As for Mt-DNA, or maternal ancestry, it’s part Middle Eastern, part Southern European (Italian, Greek, etc). Just how much Southern European ancestry is in there is up for debate; two major genetic studies found it about 50-50, another recent one found it to be 65-81 percent European. There is very little Eastern or Central European ancestry, as well as some minor East Asian and Sub-Saharan African ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews too.
Pretty much, all the rest of my known ancestry comes from England, Ireland, Scotland and probably France (or at any rate Quebec); he was the most recent immigrant and did come from the right area (Germany); because the percentage (12%) is about right for one great-grandparent, and because the paternal haplogroup also fits that profile (among others). It’s not absolute evidence by any means, but the evidence is pretty strong.
I’m pretty sure he never said anything to anyone after he emigrated here about being Jewish, I wonder if he even knew? Although I don’t have his, I do have copies of christening records for (what I believe are) his brothers and sisters. So if his family were practicing Christians, I guess that means they must have converted at some point?
Makes me wonder what conditions were like for Jews in 18th and 19th century Germany. Would they have converted out of necessity, or was it a real conversion? I suppose I’ll never know.
Roddy
I don’t know that it’s the Y chromosome, I don’t think that 23andme has provided that information. I was going on the factors in my previous post.
Roddy
They do give you info on Y and mitochondrial (maternal only) separate from the somatic chromosome information. The ancestry “analysis includes DNA you received from all of your ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived 500 years ago, before ocean-crossing ships and airplanes came on the scene.” I am paternal line T (“a widespread but rare haplogroup that originated about 20,000 years ago, probably on the Arabian peninsula or in northeastern Africa”); maternal H7 (very common); and boringly 93.4% Askenazi (no surprises).
Here’s the Wikipedia article about Jewish ethnic groups:
Basically there are three of them - Ashkenazi (eastern and central Europe), Sephardic (southern Europe), and Mizrahi (Middle East). The article splits up things further and adds a few other groups.
My husband’s great-something grandfather emigrated from Prussia to the US around 1860 (I’d have to go look up the exact year). His family name is rare in the US and after WWII also very rare in Europe. The family that stayed in Europe was definitely Jewish, and most of them perished in the Holocaust, but the one who emigrated to the US promptly married an Irish Catholic woman and all descendants since have been Catholic. We don’t know for sure that he was Jewish when he came to the US, but he might have been.
That’s not exactly correct - there’s a big overlap between Sephardic and Mizrahi. The former are descended from the medieval Iberian Jewish community; the latter simply means Jews from Muslim countries. Greek Jews are Sephardic but not Mizrahi; Persian Jews are Mizrahi but not Sephardic; Algerian Jews are both Mizrahi and Sephardic.
Jews descended from the medieval German Jewish community - meaning basically all European Jews except for those from the Balkans and Netherlands - are Ashkenazi. Sundry smaller groups, not classified under any of the above, include the Ethiopian Jews and the Indian Jews.
Which is what the article says. I was simplifying it somewhat. As usual, if you just point to an article that explains it in full, you’ll get asked to summarize it. If you summarize it, you’ll be told that you didn’t get it right.
Conditions for Jews in Europe were mostly pretty terrible during that era, with some major exceptions during the Napoleonic period. Many Jews converted, such as Disraeli and Mendelssohn, to name a couple of the most famous. There were many families that were Jewish by birth but not “practicing” because there was such persecution and perceived stigma. It was a simple step for many of them to convert, in order to fully assimilate. Whether such conversion was “real” or “from necessity” or even “for convenience,” is impossible to say for any individual unless they’ve left some record. My own guess would be that most such conversions were appearance-sake, for social acceptability, and that there was little or no religious/philosophical change: they weren’t religious as Jews, and they weren’t “believers” as Christians, they just followed the forms to gain acceptance (or what they thought was acceptance.)
And a happy Christmas to all who celebrate it. To all who don’t for that matter, may it be a happy day.
I saw this a few years ago in person. I believe that the Hebrew translates to Holy, Holy, Holy is God but hopefully someone with better knowledge of Hebrew will chime in.
Conversions from Judaism to Christianity were quite common in Germany. Wikipedia has a list of converts to Christianity from Judaism which contains a significant number of individuals from Germany.
Capt Kirk, could you explain to us carefully what about the statue is anti-Semitic? There’s something I’m not understanding, despite having looked at the links you gave.
