EU poll: Israel 'biggest threat' to world peace

Great Debates
21

Yes, when the truth is that Muslims are evil… right?

Er, no. But the fundies that are doing the fighting and want separation from all non-Muslims or the right to rule them are evil. Just as many of you distinguish Zionism and Jews as two seperate things, I distinguish Islam from Wahhabism.

** We have a saying here which isn’t always correct but in this case very much so: It’s not one persons fault when two people fight.
**

Depends on the conflict. In the case of Israel-Palestine, it has been two-sided. Same for Russia-Chechnya and Armenia-Aizerbaijan. In the case of the Sudanese Christians and animists, and Christians and Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia, it’s pretty much all the Muslim extremists’ fault.

And in all those cases, even though both sides were responsible for the fighting, the non-Muslim side has done more to make an effort to stop it. Israel and the PLO signed an agreement which was broken before the ink dried by the Palestinians. India has been willing to offer a referendum on Kashmir. Meanwhile, Pakistan and Muslim militants try to drive out all non-Muslims to create new facts on the ground. They did the same thing in the West Bank from 1949-1967, making it a Jew-free zone. Russia and Chechnya made a peace agreement which was promptly broken by Chechnyan terrorists.

**Islamofascism isn’t a country, unlike Israel, USA and Iran. The question wasn’t which “movement” was threatening peace the most.
**

In some cases it is represented by a country, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran, or prior to 2001, Afghanistan. Can’t forget Sudan as well.

To re-iterate. The poll and the answers did not place a moral value on the countries. The people answering Israel can not be considered anti-semites based on their answers.

I would agree, although combining that with other things going on over there, it’s hard not to wonder. And putting Israel ahead of North Korea? That’s just perverse.

**Israel is smack in the middle of the most sensitive region of the world and what do they do ? Build Cold War style walls… fire missiles into civilian areas… demolish houses as retaliation… say they are sorry they didn’t kill Arafat before… and then menace to throw him out, then they bomb Syrian territory. Would you like a neighbor like this ?
**

If Israel was where Mexico is and Mexico was where Israel is, Mexico would be the greatest threat to world peace and Israel would be a good neighbor.

Their actions are in response to constant attack.

22 
Your wrong... it would depend on WHAT Mexico did... and HOW strongly. Naturally the location helps boost "dangerous" perception...  before Sharon I hardly think most people thought Israel to be #1 menace funny enough thou. High but not #1.
23

If Mexico was attacked like Israel was, they’d fight. and they would take territory in the process. And they wouldn’t give up that territory without a peace agreement.

No country would act differently from Israel, except maybe do worse. There are many nations that would have simply expelled or murdered all the Palestinians and annexed the land within days of taking it.

It’s not as if Israel’s situation is unique. Look at the behavior of other nations facing similar problems and judge their behavior relative to Israels.

Look at Tibet. Or Chechnya. Or Sudan. Or Armenia. Or Kashmir.

24

Hey, YURP! Israel has SLBMs and you’re starting to scare me.

My question was, a couple weeks ago, paraphrasing (lazy):
“I wonder what percentage of Europeans think Israel even has a right to exist?” I knew that the governments in Europe were “discouraging” polling in that area.

25

Europe: prosecutes dogs that make the Hitler salute.

Europe: losing its mind with anti-Semitism. IMO, of course.

26

Cite please?

Amusingly, two of these states are allied to the US. Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

What other things would that be?

And the attacks are in response to constant attacks. Which doesn’t matter. The attacks happen, the region is destabilised by them, therefore, no matter wether they are “right” or not, they’re a threat to peace… which was the poll question.

Just because you seem to have some idea that “something is going on” that makes a perfectly logical reply suddenly anti.semite or anti-sionist does not mean it is so. I would have answered Israel (or US) and I am neither anti.semite, anti-sionist or anti-US (oh, and I’m not an Islamofascist either just to clear that up, if you’re into the whole “You’re with us or against us” thing).

Beagle: Knows not of what he speaks. IMO, of course.

27

Anyone who doubts the trust of this statement should just look up Jordan’s treatment of the Palestinians.

28

My dog would rule all the other Nazi dogs. She does a perfect low Hitler with either paw on command. Germany imitates Onion.

It’s already been explained to me, thanks, that only Europeans can have an opinion on European public opinion – even though mine was correct.

29

Sadly, I believe you *are * correct, Beagle

Anti-Semitism rears it’s ugly head in Europe once again. [if you want a “cite”, please take a look at the major European newspapers]

I’m thinking the reason for it, might be the same as in the 19 thirties. Jealousy at the succes of the Jewish people. Anger at their ability to work hard for their money. IMO it has nothing to do with the Israëli/Palistinian conflict.
The fact that the USA [in itself a succesful people] support Israël, will only stir up more jealousy.

30

Well, yes, but that’s an intramural kind of thing. For me and my brother to get in a fight, that’s one thing, but if some Israeli decided to wade in, we’d both stop fighting in a moment and kick some Israeli ass.

…and this seems to be much of the problem in the Middle East.

The Israelis are not going to quit shooting until the Palestinians do. And the Palestinians aren’t going to quit until they get unified and under some sort of actual central control, and this isn’t going to happen because the Palestinians haven’t agreed on anything in recorded history, except possibly “Israel Sucks.”

Meanwhile, all the neighboring countries agree that the Palestinian situation is a sad, bad thing, but you notice that none of them have offered territory to create a Palestinian state, or funding to create a Palestinian infrastructure, despite several of them having large uninhabited areas and huge amounts of money.

In fact, all any of the neighbors have done is offer moral support and funding to Palestinian extremist groups…

31

Her name is “Panzer.” “Armor,” as in suit of, or “armored” in any military context. You may remember them from such engagements as Barbarossa or Berlin. Seriously, she will out-Nazi any European dog you put her up against.

32

I’m still trying to figure out what point 2Thick is trying to make.

Certainly the MidEast is a hot spot. And relative to Israel “the other side” isn’t any particular country at this point. So if one believes that the likely world powderkeg is the MidEast and that the Islamic fundamentalist movement is a direct response to Israel’s existance or to the state of the the Palestinian people, then one would believe that Israel is a threat to world stability (and could believe that without believing either that Israel is in the right or in the wrong. As Stoneberg seems to be an example of.) Of course I believe that such is a false analysis and that Islamic fundamentalism is more a response to the encroachement of Western secularism into Arab cultures and is fostered by oppressive regiemes looking for causes that can distract the anger of the people away from the treatment that they recieve by their own governments. And I believe that Islamic fundamentalist extremism is the current biggest threat to world stability. And that the current US response to it is not helping matters.

But 2Thick’s point is?

That Europeans tend to be sympathetic to the Arab POV and, relatively, biased against the Israeli POV? Duh.

That Europeans are poor analysts of world events?

Or that if Europeans think it then it must be true but they know all?

Or trying to bait Israel supporters?

:rolleyes:

33

well, he managed to do just that. :slight_smile:

34

Please prove that the european population is more anti-semite then the US population. I happen to believe that’s bullshit. The average EU country’s foreign policy will obviously be a lot more critical of Israel then the US, but that is a completely different matter. Every country in the WORLD is less supportive of Israel then the USA.
Beagle: If you had bothered to actually read the article (or did you and just failed to comprehend it?) you would have seen that the dog is not beinng sued. A man is being sued under the strict anti-Nazi laws of Germany for saying “Sieg Heil” and “Heil Hitler” in public. When he was questioned by police he also revealed and demonstrated that his dog had been taught to heil. There was an intention to pursue him for teaching his dog this too but that was dropped.

So basically, what you state is bullshit. Any other “evidence” of us Europeans going crazy with jew-hatred then this debunked and rather pathetic attempt?

Actually I support the ‘bold’ statement 100%, that is a pretty accurate depiction of my opinion on the matter. I don’t believe that the fundamentalist movement is a direct response to Israel, but neither Israel or the current US policy is helping matters at the moment. Some years ago it was moving in the right direction, but with Sharon in power that movement stopped, and 9/11 seems to have accellerated it in the opposite direction.

35

Funny, the first thing that popped into my head was Mormon suicide bombers declaring jihad to regain their homeland…

36

**Stoneburg ** [funny, I have the feeling we’ve met before]

I thought you’d actually might have read some newspapers, but:

I find it shameful that in France, the France of Liberty-Equality-Fraternity, they burn synagogues, terrorize Jews, profane their cemeteries. I find it shameful that the youth of Holland and Germany and Denmark flaunt the Kaffiah just as Mussolini’s avant garde used to flaunt the club and the fascist badge. I find it shameful that in nearly all the universities of Europe Palestinian students sponsor and nurture anti-semitism. That in Sweden they asked that the Nobel Peace Prize given to Shimon Peres in 1994 be taken back and conferred on the dove with the olive branch in his mouth, that is on Arafat. I find it shameful that the distinguished members of the Committee, a Committee that (it would appear) rewards political color rather than merit, should take this request into consideration and even respond to it. In hell the Nobel Prize honors he who does not receive it.

Q: What is fueling the new anti-Semitism? A: There are a couple of factors. More and more the world is becoming a global village. Globalism has its good points and its bad points. Especially in Europe, especially in the Middle East, especially in Africa, people feel they are losing control of their destinies, that globalization is taking away from their identity. That anger and that loss of one’s identity leads people to search and blame someone for it. What they turn to is to find a scapegoat for their ills. There are a lot of ills out there and unhappiness. On top of the conspiracy list for many years, atop the blame game, are the Jews. Jews are a convenient scapegoat for the ills of modernity.

Europe, particularly France, is Anti Israel and Anti Jew - Why?

[note the list of European countries.]

37

And yet according to Eric Alterman in his latest Nation column, anti-semitic violence by the supposedly anti-semitic French is committed almost exclusively by Arabs rather then native Frenchmen and the senior leader of the French jewish community “told American Jewish leaders then in the process of stoking anti-French hysteria on the issue to mind their own business,”. Same leader also pointed out the rather obvious point that the anti-semitic incidents were “linked to the Middle East and specifically to the outbreak of the intifada”.

The New Know-Nothingism

38

Could I draw your attention to this quote from an article in Le Monde by Théo Klein (French/Israeli, ex-pres of CRIF, ‘The’ French jewish organisation) - I’ll translate the core - and I’m sure you all can work out the rest !

No - “They” are not all “against us” !

06.09.02
Théo Klein

I don’t know if his writing’s available in English.
I should also point out that that portion of the French population which voted Le-Pen (hard right) those generally accused of being ‘anti-semitic’ are much more vocally anti-muslim.

We’ve been living with fundamentalist islamist terrorism way longer than the US, and believe me, it’s a much hotter issue here Israel is. A substantial part (all ?) of what is framed as French anti-semitism in the press is in fact a conflict between French jews and French muslims.

(on preview I see Eolbo’s making a similar point…)

39

I’ve given up arguing this as it’s like banging your head against the wall.

If I was given a list of countries and asked which ones are most dangerous to world stability I’d put the US first(not in a negative way. It’s just that the US can and does effect the whole world and the current Admin have shown a certain zeal in doing whatever the fuck they want). Israel would be pretty high up there along with Palestine, India and Pakistan.

Anyway a lot of people over here are idiots who just spout bullshit that they heard someone else say without having a real clue what lies beneath. This is different that anywhere else in the world how?

40

Once again, Anti-Israel and Anti-Semitism has been confused!

If somebody is against Israel (me), then the question is not whether to kill Jews.

The question is, why has a Jewish state has been created where Jews and other people lived before?

It’s not whether Jews should be allowed to live there. Why wasn’t a state created, where Jews and non-jews have the same rights?