EU poll: Israel 'biggest threat' to world peace

Great Debates
41

Yojimbo:
I’ve given up arguing this as it’s like banging your head against the wall.

What wall,** Yo**? A cold war style wall?

Rashak Mani:
Well the survey results shouldn’t come as a surprise… Israel is smack in the middle of the most sensitive region of the world and what do they do ? Build Cold War style walls…

Uh, Rashak. The cold war walls were built to keep their own people in. The Israeli walls are being built to keep Palestinian baby killers out. A difference as subtle as a train wreck.

And yes! That poll was flawed! Even the yuropies aren’t that out of touch…well maybe France… and uh…possibly Germany…and of course, our friends the swiss…and then there’s…

42

If the Wall was on Israel’s proper ground, nobody would care.

43

It strikes me that all these accusations of anti-semitism is just the same dishonest debating tactic we see with accusations of anti-americanism. “I’m right because i’ve intelligently considered the facts available to me. You’re wrong because you’re prejudiced and bigoted.” If you honestly feel your viewpoint is right then why not just argue it, rather than essentially insulting your opponent?

44

Wow, Gum, that’s some pretty compelling evidence. I mean you have links to THREE extremely biased pro-judean sites AND a link to an interview with an author working for the ADL and promoting his book about anti-semitism. That’s some pretty damning stuff.

Ok, so were you not expecting me to check the links or do you actually think they prove anything other then that pretty much any opinion available has been printed on the net?

Obviosuly you don’t even know what a newspaper is, so maybe you shouldn’t be questioning whether I have read them or not. Of the 4 these 3 can hardly be called “newspapers”:

Antisemitism and xenophobia today (self explanatory)
The wild olive branch (seems dedicated to the joint cause of jews and christians)
International wall of prayer (zionist site)

The last IS indeed a newspaper. It’s not an article though, it’s an interview with an author that is promoting his book “Never Again? The Threat of the New Anti-Semitism”. I don’t know what that proves except that someone has written a book, and he doesn’t want people to be anti-semites (I don’t either!).

If this is representative of the foundations of your beliefs, I will just have to say that your opinion isn’t very qualified.

The truth is that if there is any racist movement growing in Europe it is an anti-muslim/anti-arabic one. THAT if anything is the real problem. The issues people have with Israel is with the nations policy, not the population of Jews (which is larger in the US anyway IIRC).

Once again, hopefully you will understand:

It’s a problem with Israel and its policy, not the jewish people

45

According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz today the proportion of anti-semitic incidents in Europe that is perpetrated by muslim immigrants is about 95%. Take that away and the rising tide of european anti-semitism fable just collapses.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/356403.html

I think all the talk that Europeans are anti-semitic is a cheap and fairly mindless smear designed to stifle debate.

46

Two of what states? Turkey may be an Islamic state, but they are hardly of the same mind as Saudi Arabi or Iran - seeing as how they are a very secular government.

Please explain what you are babbling about.

47

>> I guess all of Europe is anti-semitic.

I guess some people are so willfully ignorant or lying so maliciously that they confuse being against the policies of the country of Israel with being prejudiced against a certain race of people.

Accusing Europeans of being anti-Jewish is plain silly and ignorant. Europe is much more varied than the USA and there is little about which most Europeans agree. There are small racist minorities but I cannot believe they are any greater than they are in the USA.

I would say more, the answers did not even say people were against the policies of Israel (although you might want to argue it is implied), the answers were that “Israel poses the biggest threat to world peace”. This is a statement which can be argued for or against but it is not a judgment of value either for or against Israel or Jews.

The USA is not in a position to preach to Europe about race relations. Anti-Muslim feelings in America today are running several orders higher than anything happening in Europe.

I believe the greatest threat against world peace today comes from the USA. This is not a judgment of value regarding the USA or the American people. This is my opinion about who is most likely to start wars in the near future. I base that opinion on the fact that the government of the USA has already invaded Iraq unprovoked and against the opposition of most of the world and it has been acting very threateningly and is using loud, aggressive, rhetoric with respect to other countries. I cannot think of any other country more likely to start a major war which would have serious effects around the world. The invasion of Iraq has already raised world tensions by an order of magnitude and the actions of the USA continue to increase them rather than defuse them.

48

Stoneberg,

re the sources given by gum-

Are you saying that since the source is “pro-judean” that the facts are incorrect? The source quotes from an Italian source and another lists events. Are you claiming that they are making it up?

Eolbo and astoride,

I have heard it portrayed not that Old School Europeans were committing antisemitic acts, but that those in power {governmental and in the media) were often turning a blind eye to acts of anti-semitism committed by Muslim fanatics … who cares what one “other” does to another “other”? Especially if it is against the Jews.

Being readers of the European media, is this at all a reasonable view of events?

It looks like 2Thick succeeded in his/her baiting. Some anti-Israelism is based in occult antisemitism, no doubt; much isn’t. I can’t help but believe that some of the eagerness to condemn Israel is based on some element of that.

49

DSeid

To the bst of my knowledge, European establishment anti-semitism is (pretty much) a thing of the past. Much of the “anti-israeli” sentiment is founded in a traditional left pro-palestinian position - sympathy for the underdog, and ethical dissapointment towards Israel. In France any number of the “anti-israel” spokesmen are in fact jews (who are much more present in the traditional left than the traditional right).

In fact, I’m not sure if it’s common knowledge in the US that a huge number of Israelis also have serious doubts about their government’s policies, Israelis (and jews) are by no means monolithic.

Despite a handful of anti-semitic “Militia” type movements (considerably less here than in the US), Racial tension in Europe, such as it is, is generally along the “whites” vs “muslims” divide, where jews are very much part of the “whites”. Islamist terrorism in Europe targets jews and non-jews (this distinction almost seems absurd as I write it), and Establishment racism mainly involves “muslims” (north africans) getting fewer job opportunities, being over-represented in prison populations etc - analogous to black vs white in the US.

Hope this is clearer.

50

A muslim cemetry has been attacked last week in France, but nobody talked about it in the “anti-semitism” threads.

Just wanted to mention it…

51

And they could have made a camp just to concentrate them all there. I’m sure that is what you really mean.

52

I am saying that the source is not a news or fact source, but a PR source for a specific political cause. If you check the sites that is pretty obvious. Using those links to (and this is what he does) “prove that Europe is anti-semite” is plain ludicrous and bordering on offensive. As sources go, they are as biased as can be found.

I have no idea what “Old School Europeans” is, I have never heard that phrase. I’ll just remove the Old School and pretend you said European, since I can answer the question anyway:

That is not only a fable, but a very unlikely one. Not only is there as far as I know no such antisemitic acts going on but if there were, it is the racially motivated act that the Government would strike down hardest on. Basically, because of the WWII atrocities, the Government tends to be a lot more decisive in handling racist acts committed againt jewish people then any other ethnic group. Media is pretty much on the same page there, an anti-semitic act will get a lot more attention then say a simmilar incident against black, arab or hispanic groups. I don’t know where you would hear that, I have heard nothing even approaching it.

53

The UK had tied everybody’s hands with their damnable Balfour Declaration. Had it not been the case that a pious crackpot with rather “idiosyncratic” doctrinal ideas had been in charge of a world power (sound familiar?), a lot of bloodshed would never have happened.

54

Beagle, you really have to stop with these strawmen. the poll does not ask wether people believe that Israel should exist or not, rather what countries actions can upset the balance of “world peace”.

Anyway, what Yojimbo said.

55

On the hijack of European antisemitism.

A source. Yes. It is from an Israeli University. But the facts are still the facts.

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2002-3/general.htm

Stoneberg,
That you don’t know of them going on is your not caring to see. Anti-Israelism is used by some as cover for antisemitism and I have gone by rallies, and read posts, where the veneer is thin indeed.

That does not mean that one cannot and should not be critical of Israeli policies. I have been and many Jews inside and outside Israel are.

It does not mean that the accusation of antisemitism should be made lightly or even in any particular case. I do not know what motivates a particular person and without overwhelming evidence will keep my suspicions to myself.

But for you to say that there are “no such antisemitic acts going on” is amazing.

56

This is the sort of acts that are not going on:

But of course I am lying…

I can’t do it any longer! I can’t keep covering up for my bretheren! I admit! I was just out on a “Hate the jews!” 5-mile march, and on the way home we defiled a synagogue and beat up an old couple that looked suspiciously jewish. All my friends are doing it, it’s just peer pressure. What can I tell you, the whole of Europe is just going nuts, boiling with anti-semitism.
This year we have had a total amount of zero anti-semitic acts of violence in my town, and the whole country unless I have missed any in the news or they weren’t reported… which is extremely unlikely since the media here loves to bring up racially motivated crimes. The last couple of times they did, it was arabs being assaulted.

I have spoken to a total amount of zero people who seem to have anything against jews. My friends have failed to notify me of any raise in jew hatred in their vicinity as well.

Internationally I have heard nothing about simmilar things. Obviosuly because I don’t “want” to see it. My brain will automatically filter out any reports of violence if they are associated with the words jew or anti-semitic.

Politicians have brought up the problem of violence against jewish people a sum total of zero times. A few years ago the Government did however seend out a special book about the holocaust to every household in the country, as part of an education/enlightment program.

The only jewish person I know has mentioned the growing hatred against his people a sum total of… you guessed it, zero times.

As far as Europe boiling with hatred towards jews, they must be doing it very quietly.
Yes, people get beaten up. Some get killed. People get robbed, stabbed, run over, spat at and shouted at. Sometimes for being black/yellow/purple, sometimes for having freckles or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, sometimes for no reason at all and most of the time for cheering for the wrong team in a sport.

Now… is anyone of the people who in this thread wail about the anti-semitism in Europe actually… you know, living in Europe? Or is it a bunch of Americans claiming to know more about what is going on in Europe then the Europeans?

57

DSeid I wouldn’t waste a thought on Stoneberg. It’s clear where he comes from.

Some more links. * by the “left-wing” BBC*

Europe shaken by anti-Jewish attacks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1959441.stm

or ‘Students for academic freedom’

Anti-Semitism is not new to France. “France never purged itself of anti-Semitism, just hid it,”
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7818

But, I think he knows. Nothing to be proud of, indeed. [mark: some people from my country are among the anti-Semites]

If you want me to, pebblemountain, I’ll fetch you some more links.

58

Good articles.

Young people or Arab and North African descent… is that what was ment with Old School Europeans?

59

Sailor is quick to condemn blanket Euro-bashing…

…but not two paragraphs later, doesn’t mind a bit engaging in blanket American bashing…

Um, cite (for the latter quote)? Considering your posting history, I simply don’t trust many of the assertions you make.

Myself, I fall into DSeid’s camp. No, anti-Israel != anti-Semitism automatically. Reasonable criticism of Israel I have no problem with, and should be welcomed.

But some of the rhetoric and incidents I hear coming from the European left and from European Muslim immigrants does indicate to me that the veneer between the two is thin. Very thin. Scary thin, considering Europe’s ugly history vis-a-vis the Jews.

Of all the posts on this thread, the one I thought was most interesting was Eolbo’s and his/her Haaretz link:

Fair enough, and if true, that’s somewhat reassuring. I will say, though, that linking to an op-ed as a cite is disturbingly december-like, and it strikes me as odd that no one has yet called Eolbo on this SDMB faux pas. But no matter.

To me at least, Eolbo’s post and link begs the question, why are these Muslim vs. Jew incidents happening in Europe to a much greater (or at least more noticeable) degree than in the U.S.? Are Muslims torching synagogues or desecrating Jewish cemeteries in the U.S. and I’m just not hearing about it?

60

Obviously, I know full well the majority of Americans are not racist just like I know full well the majority of Europeans are not racists but, tell me, is it your position then that Europeans, taken as a whole, are more anti-Jewish than Americans, taken as a whole, are anti-Muslim-Arab-MiddleEastern? If that is your position I am willing to dispute it, beginning with some recent declarations by a US general.