I suppose if people find the increasing entrenchment of Israel a problem, they can try to solve this problem, or encourage Jews to immigrate to the U.S. and Canada instead.
Much of Europe’s rising antisemitism is a consequence of the increased levels of muslim immigration into traditionally Christian lands.
Moreover, demographic trends will work out in the end. Western Jews tend to have sub replacement birthrates, and with minimal conversion to Judaism, will eventually fade out of Europe. Furthermore, Israel will continue to concentrate Jews in the Levant.
Haberdash, why make a post entitled “Europe’s anti-Semitism crisis” if you’re going to post an article about France ? I mean, I know we don’t act like it, but France is hardly the whole of Europe.
As for the article, I’m not sure what to make of it, but at the same time it’s pretty weasely to project from the situation in Sarcelles and Garches-les-Gonesses. Yes, those places are likely hotbeds of antisemitism - as they are of every anti-. These suburbs of Paris were where the big housing projects were built in the 50s-60s, back when we brought over thousands of North Africans to rebuild after the war. It was also a major center of heavy industry. Now there’s no rebuilding to do and industry’s as dead as it is everywhere in the West, but the projects remain. With no jobs, no prospects of getting out and the rest of France wary of people who come from there, the people from those ghettos are naturally poor and angry. So, vandalism is common, and every shitty ideology that seeks out impressionable pissed off recruits is big there, whether we’re talking drug dealing gangs, neo-nazi skinheads or radical Islam.
So that’s one thing. But I really, but really doubt you can point to swastikas on those walls and extrapolate to Brest, or Toulouse, or Lilles etc…
Beyond that, I’d say it’s not so much a crisis as it is an old flame still burning. France has always been moderately hostile to Jews with occasional spikes, going back hundreds of years. It is what it is.
It’s hardly surprising that there’s going to be a lot of antagonism between North African Jews(70% of France’s Jewish population) and North African Muslims(which is probably an even higher percentage of France’s Muslim population). Contrary to popular belief Jews and Muslims didn’t start butting heads over Palestine.
I’m not really sure it’s that important. The “pied noir” Jew used to be a well known stereotype, with a peculiar accent, petulant character, typical job as a tailor, etc… and people knew where they came from and how, and why. It doesn’t seem true anymore to me, especially within the younger generation, the most likely to be involved in antisemitic incidents. It doesn’t seem to me that in general much distinction is made nowadays between Jews of different origins.
Of course, it might be that young muslims from the “banlieues” are more aware than I would guess about them, from their parents or grand parents, but at least, I never heard any mention of antagonism being based on the colonial period in North Africa nowadays (*). It might be however that it participated in a general hostility towards Jews (although older generations of immigrants aren’t particularly known for their rabid antisemitism) inherited by the younger generations. In any case, all criticism I read or hear is based on Israel policies, or on a perception of Jews in general, not on “they opressed us back then in Algeria”.
(*) different during the colonial period, since Jews had received French citizenship contrarily to Muslims, putting them in the same position as European colonists which obviously created resentment.
You know what we call people who react to losing their job, struggling with social integration, or stubbing their toe by blaming the Jews? Anti-Semites. You should hold people – whoever it is we’re talking about here – to a higher standard and not assume that burning down synagogues is a bodily response to misfortune.
Dieudonné’s hometown…
Certainly. That’s an explanation both for the home-grown Le Pen fascists, who have the allegiance of at least 20% of white Frenchmen, and for why the state and society refuses to meaningfully respond to the biweekly violent assaults on Jews by Muslims.
[QUOTE=Haberdash]
You know what we call people who react to losing their job, struggling with social integration, or stubbing their toe by blaming the Jews? Anti-Semites. You should hold people – whoever it is we’re talking about here – to a higher standard and not assume that burning down synagogues is a bodily response to misfortune.
[/QUOTE]
Because that’s what I was doing, natch :rolleyes:
So ? Plenty of assholes come from plenty of places. One guy means fuck all, and beyond that Dieudonné’s anti-Semitism comes from a very weird, sui generis place.
I’m aware of that incident. I’m also aware that it was one guy, 3 years ago, and that the Muslim community at large condemned him (even the guy who “recruited” the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo massacre !)
Now we’ve moved from “one guy” to “the unverified, disputed claims of one guy” :rolleyes:.
Certainly many Frontists are anti-semites (lord knows Le Pen Father made a career in wink-winking at them), but that’s not the sole reason people vote for the Front. Most just hate brown & black people and/or Muslims. A significant portion of their base are also “protest votes”, people who vote Front to manifest their strong distate for the current left OR right while at the same time hoping the Front won’t actually get anywhere. Which I feel is retarded but there you go.
And this is how it happens. Deny, deny, deny, minimize, minimize, minimize. You can nitpick every example to somehow “not count” and yet, here we are with Jews being assaulted and murdered for being Jews so often in France that it’s not even news anymore.
Kobal2 - take a look at this: http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.636886.1421163505!/image/4204928887.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/4204928887.jpg
Last year 7,000 French Jews immigrated to Israel. That was a record, as you can see from the graph. For 2015, the expected number is between 10,000 and 15,000. Again, look at the graph. Do you think that these people may know something you’re ignoring?
[QUOTE=Haberdash]
And this is how it happens. Deny, deny, deny, minimize, minimize, minimize. You can nitpick every example to somehow “not count” and yet, here we are with Jews being assaulted and murdered for being Jews so often in France that it’s not even news anymore.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, I see. I guess it’s my mistake for expecting you were interested in actually debating, maybe understanding, gleaning information about the world from its residents and so forth.
But if this is just about you spouting alarmist bullshit, ignoring anything anyone says and presumably seguing into a new and interesting page in your MUSLIMS BAD magnum opus, you can carry on without me.
I’m thinking Charlie happened. What else did you expect ?
7,000 in 2014. Before “Charlie”.
I think that French Muslims’ obsession with battering Jews is, indeed, bad. Is there some reason you are afraid of addressing this and would prefer to explain why no incident of anti-Semitism actually counts?
You think this is much better than antisemitism?
My case, eet eez rested, Hastings.
(yes, I know, Belgian. Still counts !)
Do I think violence against Jews for being Jews is better than anti-Semitism? I think it’s the most obvious form of it.
Jews in Europe are done for, or maybe they’re not. There’s really not a lot that can be done either way, and I can’t really be worked up to be tremendously upset about it as long as the primary involved part refuse to acknowledge the issue at hand.
Well, that’s one way to hedge your bets.
That’s great debates. It would be nice if you stopped being disingenuous.
What is your opinion of someone who makes a general statement about the members of a group accusing them all of nefarious intents?
And how would you call someone making such statements? Since you seem to have difficulties processing the word “Muslims”, let’s call this group “Jews”.
People stating that Jews are obsessed with nefarious behaviour X are called… (try to find what the missing word is).
So I guess this is the new leftist attitude towards anti-Semitism? Don’t talk about it, don’t claim it exists, if you think it ever happens you’re not listening, and certainly don’t try to address the fact that Muslims in France are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews, because THAT group is beyond reproach.
Yes, or rather not even going to the horse track in the first place. The discrepancy arises from the fact that a lot of outsiders make a lot of noise on behalf of the Jews, and certainly from the outside the situation for Jews looks rather dismal, however the official Jewish organisations say there are no problems, and certainly not a problem with Muslims. So that’s what I’m going to put my faith in. If they want me to be upset, or even do something, about the situation of Jews in Europe, the official Jewish organisations will have to come out and clearly state that there is a problem and exactly what the problem is.