From NPR, a recent EU poll found that nearly 60% of Europeans percieve Israel as the greatest threat to world peace and stability. I would most certainly have guessed the US, Korea, or China. So how real is the “new” European anti-Semitism? There are sporadic reports of violence,some from The Gaurdian, here.
However, is there any demonstrable evidence that these represent a genuine increase in anti-Semitism amongst the general Euro population? Or does it just represent business as usual from the fringe that has always existed, only now under closer scrutiny? Even if the poll results are correct, is this necessarily anti-Semitism or are Europeans with genuine concerns about world security being unfairly painted with the label for past offenses?
noteplease don’t tell me how anti-Semitic Americans are, this thread is in regard to Europe, the US need not be the yardstick for all discussions, thanks
Why, oh why does criticism of Israel’s behavior as a nation have anything whatsoever to do with anti-Semitism? Plenty of Jews crriticise Israel’s behavior; does that make anyone who disagrees with Israel an anti-Semite?
Attacks on individual Jews are, of course, another story. Or they may be, if motivated by the victim’s real or perceived Jewishness.
Er, one can believe that Israel is a problem child without necessarily being “anti-Semitic”, the same way one can believe that Islamic Fundamentalists are a problem without necessarily being “anti-Moslem”.
Or that Mike Tyson is a problem child, without necessarily being “anti-black”.
I am so sick and tired of people (not necessarily the OP) who automatically consider anti-israel policy the same thing as anti-semitism. that is so beat-- give it up please.
I never asserted it does. Israel’s policies can be criticized in the same manner as any other nation’s. I am asking if the mistrust/antipathy towards Israel has become so pervasive and fervent in European society as to spill over into an upsurge in violence against jewish targets. Or, is this coincidental and completely unrelated? Another possibilty I raised is that there has been no reemergence, merely more attention. So because I did not immediately assume complete innocent concern on the part of Europeans, I am assumed Israel’s sycophant?
I’d certainly agree on the US. But does that make me “anti-Christian” or “anti-Capitalist” or “anti-Whitey”, maybe anti-democratic ?
Maybe it would help if you explained what you meant by “Anti-Semitic” because, in this modern much spun era, the phrase seems to have a high emotive content and . . I’m not entirely sure what else any more ?
Isn’t it just a devalued, crying-wolf-too-often, political cliché and substitute term for ‘straw man’ - please explain ?
I know that there is a thread on this somewhere but I’m too lazy to link it. The poll, I think, was just a bad poll. Easy to place the MidEast as a more dangerous situation to the rest of the world than North Korea or China, and Israel as a single country that could be a trigger of a conflagration (if attacked or if it felt an attack was imminent). It isn’t even a judgement as to right or wrong; there was no checkbox for Islamic fundamentalist extremism.
The “new” antisemitism isn’t so new. It is just recycled. The Old European crap (eg “The Protocols” and other hateful bile) has just been passed into Arab hands and back to Europe via poor Arab immigrants. Sure some Israel bashing is Jew hating with a thin veneer, and some is condesencion by intellectuals who inaccurately percieve the Arab world as some sort of noble savages to be protected from Western colonialism as personified by Israel, and some is arguably well deserved. But Europe is respectful of traditions, and the tradition of antisemitism has a long history there; it would be very naive to think it ever went away just because it wasn’t fashionable to express it for a while.
Ugh, did I anywhere state, that disagreeing with Israeli policy in anyway constitutes anti-semitism? Sure, I’ll explain it for you, hostility, violence, intimidation, and hatred toward people or institutions which are jewish, belief in the worldwide jewish cabal, you know, that type of thing. I suppose we’ll have to throw out all the other oft-tossed around, worn thin, cliched antis as well then, sexism, racism, homophobia, oh yeah, almost forgot one close to your own heart, hatred of the Great Satan…aren’t these just further examples of overused, devalued “strawmen,” too? Explained? Now could you throw me a bone and address the OP?
Anti-semetic incidents are on the rise in Europe, so either the fringe is growing, or it’s just busier.
As for criticism of Israel, it CAN be anti-semetic. Some anti-Israel rhetoric has anti-semetic undertones, just as some criticism of say, affirmative action has racist undertones.
For example, all the people who believe in the myriad Jewish conspiracy theories, such as Jews control the media and governments of the world. That’s pretty anti-semetic. If you think Israel is the worst nation in the world, that’s pretty anti-semetic. What else is one to think, when Israel’s neighbors are all far greater human rights abusers, yet someone singles out Israel?
That being said, I think the 60% of Europeans considering ISrael the greatest threat is just the European sickness of blaming the victim. If someone’s house is invaded and you shoot the invader, you are considered the aggressor in Europe. Apparently that attitude of criminals as victims and victims as aggressors extends to thinking in foreign affairs over there.
labmonkey, maybe the reason you feel some of us are misunderstanding your OP is that you are lumping together 2 issues: Israel as a threat to world stability (and does this mean anything taking place in Israel, or does this mean the behavior of the Israeli government? Your phrasing isn’t clear to me), and attacks against Jews in Europe.
If you’re trying to make a case that these items are related, I think some further development of your argument is in order. How was the darn poll worded, for starters? I can’t even figure out what question was being asked, so it’s awfully difficult to evaluate the responses in context, much less relate them to a bigger picture.
It’s not. Except in so far it serves the purpose of the Sharon administration (as linking Saadam with, say, 9/11 also did for the Bush administration). From your cite:
London_Calling, while I agree with most of what you have to say above, remember - some paranoids do have enemies…
No cite, but it seems to me that whenever Anti-Israel sentiment abounds (and I won’t debate right now whether it’s with good, or any, reason - that isn’t the point), the “classic” Anti-semites tend to crawl out of the wood-work and join the bandwagon. Maybe because it is now un-PC to be openly Anti-Jewish.
You might say that - in your mind - these are bad apples ruining your good cause. Like I said, I won’t even debate that point right now. But please do acknowledge that this unfortunately-less-than-fringe element of “classis anti-semites” does exist and is riding the Anti-Israeli bandwagon. Separate them out of your camp, and I will find actually debating the (often valid!) points you make to be much easier
The EU did a report on that just recently and determined it was a combination of the usual suspects right wing groups, left wing groups, and Muslim youths.
Nazism as a viable ideology is a farce in Europe. Its followers, that consist mainly of mental institution getaways, could barely fill an average sized Munich beer-hall, let alone muster any kind of political clout to do anything. But it is as always an easy scapegoat for all kind of unpleasant facts and occurrences as well as a convenient scarecrow and political branding to marginalize unwanted political opinions.
Recently there was an EU report that showed a marked increase of anti-Semitic attack. And that the perpetrators to a very high degree were first or second generation middle eastern immigrants. Actually the report itself was never released, but some of it was leaked. The report was withheld ostensible because some thought it of low quality. Perhaps so, but since it wasn’t released we’ll never know, and are left to speculate.
In the public domain in Spain, France, Italy and Sweden, sections of the political left and Arab-Muslim groups unified to stage pro-Palestinian demonstrations. While the right to demonstrate is of course a civil right, and these demonstrations are not intrinsically anti-Semitic, at some of these anti-Semitic slogans could be heard and placards seen; and some demonstrations resulted in attacks upon Jews or Jewish institutions. In the Netherlands pro-Palestine demonstrators of Moroccan origin used anti-Semitic symbols and slogans. In Finland however, pro-Palestinian demonstrations passed without any anti-Semitic incidents. In Germany, and less so in Austria, public political discourse was dominated by a debate on the link between Israeli policy in the Middle East conflict and anti-Semitism, a debate in which the cultural and political elite were involved. In Germany and the United Kingdom the critical reporting of the media was also a topic for controversy. In other countries such as Denmark, Ireland, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Finland there was no such heated public discussion on the theme of criticism of Israel/anti-Semitism (see country reports).
Here’s the whole report if you have a lot of time:
Now could you throw me a bone and address the OP?