EU poll: Israel 'biggest threat' to world peace

Great Debates
61

Well the answer to that’s actually pretty straightforward. It comes down to the numbers and the social context.

In Paris (where I live) for instance there are about 2 million 1st and second generation “arabs” (north africans) who are typically the underclass. There are also about half a million jews (also largely recentish immigrants from North Africa). There is a high incidence of general crime amongst the “arabs” (cf poverty), and a lot of conflict between these two groups.

For instance, the school burning mentioned in Gum’s BBC link took place in Sarcelles - this is a predominantly arab, poor, and notoriously high crime area - something like Chicago’s South Side (I may be hopelessly out of date here). When a school isn’t being burned, it’s a police station or a residential building. This is the kind of neighborhood where there haven’t been any businesses for years because of problems with violence and robbery.

I hope I’m not offending anyone from Sarcelles here, but the point I’m trying to get across here is that these acts of violence which are being framed as anti-semitic are a small part of a larger pattern of violence and unrest. There is certainly a vocal ‘anti-semitic’ element in the arab community in Paris - much as there is a vocal anti-arab element in the jewish community.
The swastika-daubing ‘skinhead’ type incidents are about as common as satanist desecrations of christian churches, and generally turn out to be perpetrated by the same sensation seeking adolescents. The real violence, such as it is, stems from arab vs jew conflicts.

‘White’ French racism, where it appears, is generally targeted at arabs, not jews. Bash us for that !

I believe the situation is similar in Germany, Spain, Belgium etc. though I am somewhat less familiar with those countries.

62

Lest I be accused of being the new December :stuck_out_tongue: I will in my own defence say I do not customarily link to op-eds, but through co-incidence I had just read the piece and regarded it, as you apparently did also, as interesting and germane to the topic. Figure was attributed to the Israeli Foreign Ministry, perhaps Israeli dopers could chase it down as language difficulties would hinder me.

As to your question the obvious answer is that Europe via both history and its geographical location has a much higher arab population and immigration rate then the US. I suspect the issue is that simple, they just have more muslims. But I believe the smear serves a political purpose. The US is to an extent isolated from Europe and the rest of the world on the question of Israel and the Middle East. The smear of anti-semitism allows the accuser to cloak themselves in moral superiority on an issue on which they are otherwise vulnerable.

63

No, Sailor, my position was clearly stated in the post below:

The reason I got pissy at you was your hypocrisy - your condemnation of blanket accusations of mass European anti-Semitism (laudable, IMHO) unfortunately mixed in with a helping implication of “America is anti-Muslim hellhole” (horseshit, IMHO). It’s almost like you couldn’t help yourself - in a thread designed to discuss an allegedly alarming trend in Europe, you had to find a way to say “America is worse.” It was a lame cheap shot.

Whether the European degree of anti-Semitism is higher than the American degree of anti-Islamism (is that even a term?), I don’t know. Yes, I have my suspicions, and I’m sure you can guess what my suspicions are, but that’s all they are - suspicions.

Personally, I think it’s absurd to even have the debate you proposed unless you can point to some obvious observations (for example, if you posed the question of whether the European degree of anti-Semitism is higher than the American degree of anti-Islamism in 1938 Germany, I think the answer is fairly obvious).

64

I am amazed at the degree at which anti-semitism is confused with anti-Israel.

Here in the USSA we have over half the world’s Jews, I imagine, and they often treat their women as people, hang out with and half the time marry gentiles, don’t always mutilate their kids’ genitals, don’t usually go to synagogue and don’t grant much credence to the biblical bullshit.

Israel not only abuses its neighbors, it abuses its non-Jewish residents and all of its non-orthodox Jews as well.

65

I’m pleased that you found a quote on this topic. I read many similar assessments from representants of the French Jewish community, complaining basically that the representants/leaders of the american Jewish community were totallly uninterested in what they (the french jews) had to say about the situation in France, had already made their mind anyway, and at least in one case (following a meeting taking place in the US at the time there has been the most antisemitic attacks in France), that the american representants they had met, concerning the situation in France, only cared about the Israeli likoud’s stance (the Jewish community in France tends to lean toward the left).
I considered mentionning it many times in the past, while reading similar threads, but I didn’t find any site in english mentionning these complaints. Beside, as I already wrote one day when I was particularily irritated, there are so much people on this board who are making statements about france, or about the EU, despite being obviously clueless about these countries that I thought it was just pointless and not worth the hassle, since the majority just wouldn’t believe anything going against their stereotypical, ignorant, and often prejudiced perceptions.

Once again, sorry to say that, but concerning Europe in general and france specifically, this board really isn’t that enlightened, certainly not up to the same level of knowledge it reaches concerning other topics. The problem is that there just isn’t enough people here who’re really aknowledgeable about what’s going on here. I would say, though, that it’s much worse on other american boards I read. Actually, the board, more generally, isn’t “international” enough to be able to seriously “fight ignorance” concerning most non “western and english-speaking” countries.

I’ve been dreaming for a long time of a board as serious and disciplined and with as many knowledgeable people than this one, but which would be truly international. I discussed with many Iranians online, for instance. Is there at least one posting here? Nope, AFAIK. And nevertheless, Iran is mentionned essentially every day. The only board I know of where people from a wide range of countries actually post, unfortunately, is also one of the most bigotted, and seem to be actually dedicaced to “support ignorance” and to welcome trolls. Perhaps such an UFO ( a somewhat international board, but on par with the straightdope for the quality) will appear someday, with the quick development of the internet everywhere. I hope so.
Ok…I sidetracked and hijacked.

Just to add, as many people have mentionned, that :

-Indeed, the overwhelming majority of antisemitic attacks in France were caused by people of north-african descent (“arabs” if you like), mostly young, mostly second or third generation immigrants (not first generation), and mostly from disfranchised neighborhood. There has been a very significant rise in the number of these attacks following the second intifada.
-“Arabs” are definitely way more likely to be victims of racism than Jews. Anti-arab racism is rampant in France, antisemitism is not. You’re free not to believe me, but then I won’t take very seriously any statement to the contrary from someone who isn’t familiar with this country, either. From the discrimination/racism, etc…point of view, if I had to choose, I would pick wearing a kippah over looking arab any day. I met once an “old style european antisemite” (though I much more often heard “ordinary antisemite” comments, like the usual “Jews own the medias”). I just couldn’t count how many anti-arab racist statements I hear in any given year.
-Finally, I would also note that (though I must admit they’re quite rare), I never read on this board a mention of anti-arabs attacks made by french jewish extremists (BETAR, Jewish defense league,…) against french “arabs”, or occasionnaly french Jews who happen not to share the “correct” pro-Israeli stance (like the recent trial concerning death threats and public calls to physically attack the Jewish signatories of some anti-Israeli public statement).

66

I would say the poll, if anything, is just proof that the media in europe in general is just as biased as the media in the US, just biased in different ways. But then, the media in europe has to sell units just like the media in the US, so there is always going to be an element of telling people what they want to hear. People arent influenced by the media so much as, in a free market anyway, the media is influenced by the people. Conservative people read conservative news sources, liberal people read liberal news sources.

Personally, the question is rather silly. The biggest threats to world peace arent nations.

I think its rather silly to consider Israel the largest threat out of all nations. Ever since the spoiled brat Arafat turned down the best deal ever offered the Palestinians, the Israelis have largely been on a defensive mode. I would consider a nation that is perceived to be the biggest threat to be an offensive, rather than defensive, nation.

I think if Israel could feel that they could give up the occupied territories in relative safety, they would do so. The voters have gone that direction before, but it will take more to convince them to go that way again. Sharons election was a result of Arafats offensive actions as much as anything else; similar to Churchills ascendancy in WW2, he was the pit-bull called in from the side lines. Hes a hardliner yes, and in times of danger people tend to elect hard liners. But they elected Barak before they elected Sharon. The will for peace is there, but just as it takes two to make war, it takes two to make peace, and it just doesnt seem as if the Pals want peace.

No actions by the Pals since the camp david accords could be interpreted as any kind of guarentee that if the west bank was returned, it would not be a drastic risk to Israeli security. Its up to the Pal leadership to undue the damage done by Arafat; first simply by showing that yes, they are really leaders and can control their people. Even that minimal, yet for the Pals huge, step would be a sign of encouragement.

67

What would posses you to ‘take that away’?

If the population of muslim immigrants is on the rise in Europe, and if that population is predisposed to anti-semitism, then it is more than fair to say that anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe.

68

Hehehe

Especially if a european defines the term european to not be just people who live in europe, but also a matter of some sort of weird blood-decent thing.

For non-arab europeans to primarily blame anti-semitism on arab europeans is itself a proof of potential anti-semitism. After all, european arabs are semites too. :wink:

69

GoHeels, I think you misunderstod my point which was not, as you seem to think, to attack America. My point, in simplified terms, is this:
Someone says Europe is awful because there is (some, a lot, a little) racism - antisemitism.
I say disagreeing with the policies of Israel is not a sign of racism or antisemitism.
I do not deny there is some antisemitism in Europe but, to put things in context, I compare it with anti-Muslim sentiment in the USA and I believe antisemitism in Europe is not greater than anti-Muslim feelings in the USA. With this i am not saying the USA is a hellhole as you put it. On the contrary, my point is that, in spite of whatever antiMuslim people there mey be in the USA, we know the country is not a hellhole and, ergo, it follows that neither is Europe the hellhole some are saying it is. That is my point and none other and there is no need for you to feel attacked where no attack was intended.

70

To our European posters (clairobscor, eolbo, asteroides):

Hate crimes against those percieved as Muslim are rampant, and given the greater number of Arabs in Europe, a much larger problem than the increase in hate crimes against Jews. I believe you. Doesn’t surprise me really. What kind of response is given by those in power (politically and in the media)?

And Jews in Paris are now mostly poor Sephardic immigrants?! Really? That surprises me.

jojimbo’s portrayal of any traditional Jewish religious observation as “abusive” is … interesting … given how this conversation has gone, don’t you think?

And to clarify, no, I don’t think that the French are especially antisemitic. I am sure that French Jew haters abound, but not more there than anywhere else. What I think is that there is an “old school” mentality in much of Europe that is that old style nationalism that blends into nationhood as racial identity just referenced by the last posters. And part of that identity is the Church and part of it is cultural, and part of it is generations of history. These are not countries that have totally come to grips with being nations of immigrants and “others” - Jews, Arabs, Asian, etc - are not quite ever really seen as French or European but as a necessary evil. Even generations later. The French establishment still percieves as crimes against these groups as happening to “them” and not to “us”.

But this poll means little and isn’t worth getting excited about one way or the other.

71

Just want to clarify that I am not European in the least. I am Australian. My interest is academic rather then wounded European pride.

72

I’ll try to take a look later in the day, and get back to the board with a firmer source… hopefully I’ll be able to so this around 21:00 GMT.

Dan Abarbanel

73

That’s jimbino you’re talking about (just to avoid any confusion with yojimbo).

74

I’m not French either, but I’ve been here for quite a while

Mostly sepharad, but not mostly poor - I don’t know the whole history, but it’s a result of French colonisation of Morocco and Algeria - any info Clairobscur ? However the victims of “anti-semitic” violence are primarily poor sepaharads. Probably due to proximity.

As for tolerance, immigration etc. I think you’d be pleasantly surprised DSeid. Europe has a long history of immigration and shifting national identities. Nationalism is pretty mild here (maybe thanks to a couple of wars too many). You won’t see too many flags, people don’t generally identify too much with the nation or government, ethnic ghettos are pretty rare. Belleville in Paris for instance is a Jewish and Arab neighborhood - but there’s no real notion that others are unwelcome.

I wouldn’t want to paint an overidealized picture here - every day I hear my Jewish neighbors complaining that “the Chinese” are taking over the neighborhood - we’re having a huge influx of asians right now - but no sign of violence, not even any hate graffiti or window breaking.

I’m going to have to re-iterate, most racial tension in Europe involves the 2nd generation of North African (and Turkish) immigrants, and is mainly directed against them. This problem is partly fuelled by islamism, but is also largely tied into the fact that these people constitute the bulk of Europe’s “underclass”. Unfortunately this seems to be a growing problem, with ghettos and high crime areas emerging in the “projects” around the major cities.

75

jimbino, your arguement is pure crap.

aside from your first paragraph, which frankly calls to mind anti-semetic literature (and with a simple word change, anti-muslim literature also), have you got any cite for your last assertion?

76

The US was listed as number 2 in this survey. So wouldn’t it be more likely this is reflecting a particular political slant than anti-semitism?

77

Or it could be that it’s a flawed question - what does it mean? You could argue all sorts of “threats”.

You have to admit that, in terms of firepower, the US has the greatest capacity to wreak havoc - and many Europeans are deeply distrustful of the current administration.

The current Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians is the greatest impediment to normalized Islamic/Western relationships.

North Korea has the craziest government.

But if you want a geographical region instead, I could point you at the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea, sitting on a possible oilfield, and currently disputed by no less than five countries (IIRC).

Also, respondents could choose as many countries as they liked. They could have chosen every one on the list. Thus the US comes joint second with Iran and North Korea.

The question was crap in the first place.

78

I’m not going to bother explaining why the two questions are tantamount to the same thing. It would require logical leaps Europeans are unprepared to make. Given the ideological climate, I am challenging the most sacred of all cows. I expect some “noise in the system.”

OTOH, this is too good to pass up. Jean-Francois Revel

Throw in “Israel” for “United States” and the same thing is true only moreso, plus anti-Semitism.

I quoted a conclusary passage from an entire book, off FPM, please don’t say something stupid like “cite.” This is one.

79

You’re not going to because you’re pulling your “logical jumps” out of your arse.

they aren’t the same question at all, as several posters have already commented to you. Just keep on ignoring logic, and you’ll be doing fine.

80

“biggest threat to world peace”

Question: are you willing to fight against anything? If so, what is it?

How about the “biggest threat to world peace”?

I already noted that certain polls would be illegal to conduct in Europe, IMO.