It seems there is quite a cultural clash going on with Muslims & Europe. Is there a legitimate reason Europeans are concerned about Muslims immigrating in, or becoming part of the EU in the case of Turkey? Or this this mostly just driven by a gut-level fear of outsiders?
I’m going to go out on a limb here and go with fear of “the other”. I couldn’t help but notice you titled your OP “The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe” but haven’t mentioned a single one. Have a change of heart between naming your OP and actually writing it?
Not really, the Jews are the ones you need to watch out for. They’re vastly craftier and better at manipulating the goyim.
In all seriousness, radical Islam is certainly nothing to be underestimated but it thrives when Muslims are a persecuted minority or when they live under a relatively secular dictatorship which pits itself as the enemy of the Islamists, not when they’re an accepted part of a democratic community.
It is way too late to keep Muslims out of Europe now, you know. There are lots of them here already. Most are perfectly good citizens (like most of the non-Muslims).
Anyone remember the 2004 Madrid train bombings which killed 191 people and wounded 1,800? The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda-inspired terrorist cell.
About 90% of the population in my country belongs to a Christian church, but there’s a lot of tolerance toward Muslim immigrants. The strongest party at the moment is courting one of these (a former Palestinian citizen) and trying to convince him to run for President in an effort to put up a strong opposition against the most popular candidate at the moment.
The standard U.S. technique has been assimilation. The parents may be strict and old-country, but when the kids get into computer games, skateboarding, dating, and comic books, they become “Americanized” in a hurry. The old melting pot may take a generation or two to westernize immigrants from distant lands and distinct cultures, but the history of this kind of cultural warfare has been that western values are highly attractive. We’re best at marketing.
Why kick 'em out when we can make positive, productive, profitable use of them?
(Someone once said that the Vietnam war was a gigantic Viking Raid, where the U.S. came away with the real treasure of the country: the many thousands of people who came here to avoid the communist victory.)
We still couldn’t beat Norwich yesterday…
the 9/11 bombers were mostly educated Saudi Arabians. The 7/7 London bombers were British born.
Hardly what I’d call persecuted minorities or citizens of a secular dictatorship…
The UK had a similar windfall when Idi Amin expelled Asians in the early Seventies.
Really? Muslims have actually committed acts which many consider to be terrorism?
I’m shocked!
On a more seriousness note, by your standards, there’s a whole pile of ethnic and religious groups who’d be banned from Europe based on such logic.
I’m just wondering: has there ever been any terrorist act by the people commonly called “Gypsies”?
You’re first statement is true but a bit misleading.
Saudi Arabia is not a secular dictatorship, but it’s a western backed dictatorship which has rather ruthlessly tried to crush radical Islamic support and in doing so has dramatically strengthened it.
Beyond that, most if the principal hijackers were educated in the west and radicalized in the West due, at least in part to the way they were treated in the West, particularly in Germany.
As to the mention of “British-born” “terrorists”, you’re not helping yourself.
I’m sure that just as many white Americans find preposterous the idea that African-Americans suffer from racism, many white Britins find such a suggestion regarding Muslim Britons preposterous.
Trinopus made a similar point regarding Muslim immigrants to the US.
The contrast to Tri’s post is that UK Muslims born in the UK tend to be vastly more radical than their parents in sharp contrast to immigrants to the US.
This was addressed in the short story and subsequent movie, My Son The Fanatic.
This is an interesting dynamic. I’ve noticed at the grocery store mothers will be covered head to toe, while their teenaged daughters (I assume duaghters) are wearing American clothes, or if not that, hijabs. (With the face exposed.)
I’ve often wondered what those conversations must be like when the teenaged girl asks her parents if she can wear western style clothing.
People often ask “Where are the moderate Muslims?” Well, there they are, right there under your nose.
It is perhaps worth noting that Christian or non-religious terrorist groups have killed close to 1,000 people in Spain since the 1960s. So yeah, maybe we should keep Christians out of Europe if we want to avoid terrorism.
Interesting question. Gypsies traditionally lack a fixed territory. Since much of modern terrorism is about protecting a motherland or achieving independence, I guess gypsies have less of a reason to engage in such acts.
Well many of them are vampyr, of course.
Good lord, if we sent them away, then the UK economy would collapse.
Think of all the empty homes that hold mortgages on them, many of our financial institutions would collapse on that alone, never mind all the other real estate and financial arrangements.
We would have serious problems in markets for many products, and then there are the labour issues. Muslims form significant percentages of certain workforces - those industries and services would have immense difficulty, I can think of the low waged public sector for a start - care homes, hospitals, bus services, cleaning, the underground - the list goes on and on. As you move into the higher incomes, there are many small and medium sized businesses that are owned and run by Muslims and they employ many people besides Muslims.
Now you need to include the international political aspect, because to exclude these people will certainly has huge implications, it would involve the UK being subject to protests and sanctions, some of which would come from the major oil producers.
Whilst we might reduce the number of illegal migrants, the media - especially the right leaning press - would have you believe these are a drain on our economy, but largely they are not.
It is not even a viable idea to just exclude future arrivals either, or perhaps revoke the rights of non-EU/UK passport holders to remain for some all and several other reasons.
Just to conclude, the impact of Muslims in Europe also has a social impact in their native nations - you would need to assess the extent and scope of that - which would be a pretty complex task.
Saudi was a Wahhabist country a long time before oil was of any use to anyone. Osama bin Laden came from a very wealthy and influential family in Saudi.
Germany has a large ethnically Turkish population. They weren’t involved in 9/11. Yet a small group of well educated Saudis were.
Where did I mention the word “terrorists”?
I’m not helping myself?
I’m sure they do, but I’m not one of them.
A few years back, London was known as Londonistan in some circles. A small minority of radical muslims have preyed on the weak and feckless to carry out their work.
I didn’t see any evidence of Abu Hamza getting in the line for Martyrdom and the ensuing 40/64/72 (or whatever the exchange rate is these days) virgins who were waiting for him in the afterlife.
Try Four Lions. It’s funny…
At coffeekitten’s house, playing video games and ordering Chinese take out.
To the Neanderthals, what were the many benefits of keeping Homo sapiens out of Europe?
Absolutely. Growing up in SW Houston (Alief), I saw this first-hand. A lot of my friends up through high school were either immigrants themselves (as infants/toddlers) or were born shortly after they got here. Their parents did their damnedest to recreate Vietnam in Alief, but the kids my age (I’m 41 now) weren’t really into all that so much. I imagine their kids are even less interested than their parents. Quite a few intermarried among the local white population as well.
You also see it among Mexican immigrant families- the initial immigrants settle in Hispanic communities, speak Spanish only, and have big families. 2 generations on, and quite a few are as middle class as anyone. I have several friends whose only outward claims on Mexican ethnicity are dark skin, hispanic last names, and a liking for menudo and a few other Mexican dishes that Anglos don’t typically like.
The big question is whether or not this happens in Europe. Do Algerian immigrants to France end up acting like Frenchmen in a few generations, save the dark skin and N. African accents? Do Indian immigrants to the UK end up more or less culturally British after a few generations? What about Turkish immigrants to Germany or Indonesian immigrants to the Netherlands?
I have a suspicion that the situation is different than in the US and the assimilation process isn’t as complete, due to a differing conception of what it is to be “French”, or “British” or “German” or “Dutch”. It’s tied up with ethnicity in Europe, while in the US, it’s not. Anyone but the most benighted and ignorant hillbilly will admit that Americans come in all stripes and colors, so it’s not nearly so much of a stretch to think that these newcomers can become Americans too. But if you’re from an ethnic group/nationality that’s been more or less defined for 800 years, it’s probably hard to think of them as anything but Algerians, even if they’ve lived in France for 100 years. I mean, they may be citizens of the Republique, but they’re not “French”.