I see there have been created a European pedant to the American Free State Project. What’s your though on that? Does this have a Chinaman’s chance in hell of going anywhere (and do you even use that phrase in English?)?
I find it highly unrealistic that an outside influx of libertarian minded people will ever be able to influence another European country in any significant way – let alone take it over. So I think realistically they’ll be forced to concentrate on a region or county within a country, but then they’ll have to choose a spot with a high degree of local autonomy to make their influence matter. Also it must be place that can support such a move in – economy-wise and property-wise, etc.
Off my head I would think some place in northern Italy would be ideal; fairly central in Europe, declining and aging native population (now that they have pretty much given up having their own children altogether, perhaps they would welcome outside immigration), fair weather, fair economy. I don’t know about the local autonomy thing though.
Does anybody think such an initiative will ever be able to gather a significant amount of like minded people (libertarians even fer-Christ-sake; not the most easy going sort of people – I know, I’m one) and have them move to one place?
Hmmm, it reads so similar to the American one I really wonder how many Europeans are actually involved. Are they trying it in Europe due to the overwhelming success in the US?
I just briefly skimmed the pages you linked to. If I understand it correctly, it boils down to a large group of like-minded people moving in one area in order to influence the voting. Likelihood of succes? Mmm, lemme think…
I’ll assume that you do get a large group of people around. Over 100.000 seems already impossible to get. Even then, this is nothing on the scale of even a medium-sized country, given the fact that AFAIK the current visible Libertarian political support is close to zero.
So your only chance might be to go to a small country. I’ll disregard the fact that the local authorities might not be exactly enthused with having lots of people suddenly coming in without a clear purpose except to vote (EU regulations on free movement of persons (and labour) are too complicated to go into here). Then you could have some effect. It would have to be a real small country, though, something like Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino or so (are these even part of the EU?). You’d very likely need to be a citizen before you are allowed to vote for the national government though. Would take you at least a couple of years.
Come to think of it, don’t these tiny countries usually already have low taxes and small governments? So why bother at all?
I suggest that if you really are interested in the results that such a project could provide, you simply emigrate to Monaco or a similar place. It is exactly the same amount of trouble to arrange, and you won’t even have to bother about the political clout to achieve your purpose. In fact, there are lots of rich people who do already emigrate for similar reasons. I don’t see why you couldn’t join them. Hope it works out for you.
** “I don’t think it’ll work, and no we don’t use either the word “Chinaman” or the phrase “Chinaman’s chance in hell” in English anymore.” - John Mace**
I do. Chinese immigrants to the states were badly mistreated during the California gold rush days and they had but a “Chinaman’s chance”(slim to none) of establishing a “claim”. Unpleasant reality is more important than cosmetic euphemism.
The "in hell’ addition is kinda euphonic, don’t cha think?
I find it highly unrealistic that an outside influx of libertarian minded people will ever be able to influence another European country in any significant way…
Never say never, WinstonSmith. Many socialistic european countries have now evolved into state pens of human husbandry and are rife with citizenry eager for freedom.
One thing is true - Nothing is static. And if good men don’t change the way things are, bad men will.
Emmm… that would be lose … :smack: Of course, should you change your mind I’ll be happy to loose some of my tax on you.
None of those countries are part of the EU. Luxembourg (pop. 363.789) is and Malta (pop. 319.192) will be shortly, it’s not at all easy to move to either of Liechtenstein, Monaco or San Marino unless you’re a millionaire. Within the EU you don’t need to be a citizen to vote in local or EU elections, only national elections.
Since income tax, which is the major tax, AFAIK is a national issue in all EU countries, I didn’t think it worthwhile to go into the specifics of voting in local elections. But if you are really serious you could also try Germany: since it’s a federation there is more local autonomy than in any other European country.
But by all means go to Luxembourg if you must. They have low taxes, don’t they? And with 363.789 people, how big can their government be?
**
My god, which Ayn Rand novel did you swallow?**
My word, ** jayjay**, none. I always thought Ayn Rand too sweeping in her generalizations. But I did eat a poem by Ray Bradbury. The refrain-line of the poem was…
…when robot mice and robot men run 'round in robot towns.
Um… milum, propagandistic nonsense aside, have you ever been over here? Indeed, do you recall the GD where I showed you that it wasn’t, in fact, the US that came up with the concepts of democracy and free speech?
Have I ever been to europe? Why no jjimm, I haven’t, but then again I’ve never been to Greenland but I know it’s not green.
Admit it. You Eurotypes are becoming overrefined and effete. Kinda like ageing aimless bachelors who still live with their ageing permissive parents who still provide all the accruements of life with a minimum of demands. Such are the rewards of socialism.
Yes you did** jjimm**, you pointed out that the United States did not invent the concepts of freedom and democracy. I agree. The desire for freedom is innate in mankind and democracy evolved from the counsels of the Cro-magnon. The good people of the United States of America simply had the inspired courage to throw out the tyrants and establish a free nation of hope.
Inspired by this shinning example of the possibilities of human will, many europeans rid their own countries of their own royal tyrants so that they too could become fat and degenerate like many or the successful democratic societies of today.
I, too, await the day the French people will overthrow their rulers and establish a democratic country based on values of liberty, equality and fraternity.
The number of Americans on this board who feel at liberty (pun intended) to inform us Europeans about how savagely we are yoked to tyranny, based on (presumaby) bizarre and ill-informed tosh served up by equally myopic and bigoted commentators, and then trot this horse shit out to us without even the decency to come and see for their fucking selves (and, inevitably, find they’re misinformed) leaves me speechless.
milum, your comments are blinkered, ignorant, and bigoted. They don’t do you any favours. Nor, in fact, has any other comment you’ve made on these boards.
Yes we might as well admit it, we’re all becoming overrefined and effete. I can’t believe we’ve got away with it for so long to be honest. Still, now we’ve been called in on it we’ll start dismantling our commie pinko welfare states and public healthcare systems.
Meanwhile, in the real world… Why don’t you actually try to learn something about Europe before you start making spectacularly misinformed statements about it?