European soccer/football questions: UEFA tournaments, transfers, domestic tournaments

Factual Questions
1

Thanks to the wonders of the DVR and Fox Soccer Channel, I’ve been watching lots and lots of great games from the 2006-07 season from the EPL, the French Ligue 1, and even a little of the Argentine Clausura and Italian Serie A. (But no Spanish football, those bastards!) There’s a lot of talk about European cup qualification during most of the matches. I seem to gather that generally the top two or three teams in a league play in the UEFA Cup and get a bye, and the winners of the domestic tournaments also go to the UEFA Cup but have to play more games, and then the next two or three teams go to some other cup, and then the next two go to the Intertoto Cup, and then the next three go to the Winning Isn’t Everything Cup, or some such thing. Then there’s some kind of Champions League stuff thrown in there too, which throws me for a loop. I’ve been trying to figure out how all this works and quite frankly I’m utterly confused. Can some of you European football fans lay the whole thing out for me? Who gets into what cup and how? Are there European cups that amateur and bottom-table teams get to play in? This seems to be the case in domestic cups. Speaking of which, how the heck do those work? Why does each nation seem to have 2-4 different ones? How do they relate to each other? Who plays in which one? How do they qualify? When do they play? How does the regular-season performance of a club affect its placement in domestic tournaments, and vice versa?

I also get the impression that some of these tournaments sandwich their matches in between league games. How does that work? Does Olympique Lyonnaise up and fly to Manchester for a Champions League match three days after they play PSG and three days before they play Monaco? Are these games played in neutral sites like the World Cup, or is it a homefield-advantage thing for the team that did better in their league? If so, what happens when the French champion plays the Spanish champion? Do they determine homefield advantage by regular-season record? Goal differential?

Basically, how do these damn things work?? :confused:

I also have been watching SKY Sports News a little bit (and turning it off when the cricket highlights start, of course :wink: ) and they have a box in the upper right corner that switches between all the EPL teams and shows which players have transferred in and which have transferred out. This American can’t figure out how these transfers work. Each player’s name either says a figure in pounds next to it, or “Undisc”, “Free” or “Loan”. I guess “Undisc” makes sense–it just means the terms of the purchase haven’t been made public. But how do the other things work? Here in the US teams swap players for other players and/or draft picks (do you guys even have drafts over there?), or players sign with other teams as free agents and then work out contracts. How does it work over there? That figure in pounds they show next to each name–is that how much money the team receiving the player gave to the team losing the player? Is it basically a money-for-contractual-rights deal, where the one team gives the other team money and then works out a contract with the player independently? How does the player’s contract with the previous clup affect the contract with the new club and vice versa?

And what does “Free” mean? Surely Michael Ballack isn’t volunteering for Chelsea. Does this mean his contract ran out and Chelsea didn’t have to pay anyone for it, they just have to work out a new contract with him?

What about loaning players? What’s the deal with that? What does a team get in return for loaning a player to another team?

Thanks!

2

The Champion’s League is the European club tournament formerly known as the European Cup (which name is still used sometimes, especially in reference to the trophy itself). It consists of pre-qualifiers, a round-robin stage of several groups of four teams, and knockout stages, whereas before it was purely a knockout tournament.

The top few teams from the bigger countries qualify straight into the round-robin phase. The next few teams, or top teams from lesser countries, have to go through the pre-qualifier knockout stage. The number of teams from each country depends on how strong that country’s league is considered to be.

Below the Champion’s League is the UEFA Cup, a sort of consolation tournament for teams not good enough to make it into the Champion’s League, including some teams eliminated in the earlier stages of that tournament. The next few teams from each league, plus winners of domestic knockout tournaments like England’s FA Cup, qualify for the UEFA Cup.

Some countries have more than one domestic cup competition. In England, there’s the League Cup, usually known by its sponsor’s name, in addition to the FA Cup. These League Cups are less prestigious than the primary domestic cups, but sometimes they also earn qualification to the UEFA Cup. As to why we bother to have more than one domestic cup, good question. Partly political, in England at least - the FA and the Football League are separate organisations, and the League like to have their own special tournament. The English League Cup is open only to professional clubs in the top four leagues, whereas the FA Cup is open to amateur clubs too. There is no seeding in the cup tournaments so performance in the league has no bearing on them.

Yes, Champions League and UEFA Cup games are sandwiched in between domestic games. They are played as two-leg home and away fixtures, apart from the finals, so no neutral venue is required.

Transfers, you basically have it right but I’ll leave the details to somebody else. There have been recent threads about it.

3

Slight correction re seeding in English cup competitions - top division teams get a bye into the third round of the FA Cup, and maybe the next couple of divisions get some kind of bye too. But apart from that the draw is random.

4

How does this relate to the top division seceding from the Football League in the 90s to create the EPL? Do both cups predate that?

How many of those first three rounds are knockouts, and how many are round-robins? If they’re round-robin groups, it sounds like that cup would take an awful long time.

Has there ever been an amateur team that made an impressive run in the FA Cup? There’s an amateur team called FC Roma (Texas, not Italia) that’s taking the US Open Cup, which seems basically equivalent, by storm. Does that happen over there?

Also, I understand that if the FA Cup winner has already qualified for the Champions League or UEFA Cup by placing highly enough in the EPL table, that UEFA Cup spot goes to the next-best team that hasn’t qualified. Is that how it works? Are other European nations’ leagues like that?

And how does the League Cup relate to all this? The League Cup winner gets a spot in the UEFA Cup, right?

How are teams drawn against each other? Is there a seeding system used?

5

[QUOTE=fetus]
What about loaning players? What’s the deal with that? What does a team get in return for loaning a player to another team?

Thanks!
[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, money - the “loaned” player is effectively rented out.

The loaned players get mileage: instead of sitting on the bench all grumpy, they get to play and may work out any “bugs” their team’s current coach doesn’t like… at another team’s expense.

Sometimes a team’s new coach has a completely different style than the previous one. Say you had a defense-based team and get a coach that’s all about agression and would fire the goalies if he was allowed to: you find yourself looking to hire forwards and having too many midfielders and defenses. So you may loan some of your guys out (thus keeping them handy in case the next coach likes defense again), or do a co-loan with another team that’s gone from very agressive to defense (they loan you a left forward and you loan them a right defense).

And sometimes, both teams get surprised. Like a few years back, when half the Soria team (the Numancia) was Osasuna second-teamers on loan, Numancia went from 2nd to 1st and Osasuna was >< this far from being sent from 1st to 2nd. Looks like we’d loaned them the wrong guys.

6

Both cups predate the creation of the Premier League and the Championship. For clarification, as things stand the top leagues are:

  1. Premier League
  2. Championship
  3. League One
  4. League Two

The creation of the PL and Championship had no real effect on organisation, they were just name changes for the sake of getting more sponsorship money.

All rounds of the F.A. Cup and League Cup are straight knockouts and are drawn at random from a bag, the draw for the later rounds are usually televised, particular attention is given to the third round of the F.A. Cup when the PL teams join and those lower-league and non-league teams still surviving get a chance for a big pay day.

There have been non-league teams that have made very impressive runs or one-off victories over top teams but as far as I am aware only one non-league team has ever gone on to win the F.A. Cup and that was my team, Tottenham Hotspur, in 1901. This feat is less impressive than if it were achieved today as the leagues were much smaller/fewer then so fewer games were played en route to the final.

I am pretty sure that if the F.A. Cup winner has already qualified for European competition through the league then the UEFA cup spot would go to the losing finalist rather than the next team in the league order.

The European Cups get a bit messy with respect to making the draws. There are preliminary rounds that need to be sorted out before the competition proper begins. The UEFA cup is a two-legged knockout competition whereas the Champions League takes a league format for the first section with 8 leagues of 4 teams. The top two from each league go through to the knockout stages and the third place finishers in each group enter the UEFA Cup.

Like I said it all gets a bit messy and complicated but it’s well worth it :slight_smile:

I hope that clears a few things up for you.

7

Very interesting! Thanks. Any other enlightenment re other transfers, European tournaments and the Spanish domestic tournaments?

8

In Spain there’s two big tournaments: la Liga and Copa del Rey (previously Copa del Generalísimo, name changed for medical reasons).

Lots of summer tournaments, tri-siders and whatnot, but those are for practice and fun.

The Spanish league has the following levels:
Primera (premier)
Segunda A (usually refered to as simply segunda)
Segunda B
and then third and even lower leagues.

By the time you get to Segunda B a lot of the players are semipro at best; my local team’s uniforms are paid for by a sponsor but that’s it. Segunda B and lower leagues are divided in several regional groups. The 3 worst of 1a go down to 2a, the 3 best from 2a go up to 1a. For other levels there are “liguillas de ascenso” because of the regional groups; even if you’ve ended 1st in your group, you have to fight other teams from other groups to actually advance.

For several years, Tudelano was 1st in their group and then went to the liguilla and basically sat on the grass, telling the other team’s guys “thataway, would you like some help?” You see, in the group they were in, all the other teams were close enough to go there and come back in the day of the tournament and not be dead the next day. Advancing would have meant some 800-km-each-way trips; not good if your star forward’s actual source of income is soldiering (the kind done with a white-hot piece of metal).

Copa del Rey includes all teams from 1st and 2nd. It’s a series of double-matches, one home one away. It’s always fun when someone who’s looking like a candidate for 3rd manages to knock someone like Barça or Real Madrid out of the tournament :smiley: And of course the huge trophy (that thing is bigger than some kiddie pools) is handed over by the King. The final match is always held in Madrid, unlike previous rounds.

9

There is no such system as a draft in European football, players are usually signed by clubs at a very young age and are then trained by the club until they are ready to play first team football.

You have the right idea about transfers, basically one team offers the player’s current club an amount of money to effectively buy-out the player’s contract and have him sign for the new team. These transfer fees can reach as high as $75 million for the top players.

You are right about “Free” transfers as well, If a player’s contract runs out he is then free to join any team he wishes, or sign a new contract with his existing team if he wishes. Usually when a player goes on a free transfer they receive a large signing-on bonus as a means of tempting the player to the club, they may also receive higher wages (basically some of the money that would have been spent paying for the player goes into the player’s pocket).

Transfer fees aren’t always as straightforward as they may seem, it has become common practice to include clauses in the contracts to increase the amount of money paid based on appearances. For example a team may pay £5 million for a player but this amount could rise to £7 million based on appearances.

It is also worth noting that in the English Premier League transfers can only occur at designated times, we are currently in a transfer window now as we wait for the new season to start and there is another transfer window mid-season in January.

I’ve lost track of how many of your questions have been answered thus far so if anything else isn’t clear re-posting the question may help (well it will help me anyway).

10

[QUOTE=fetus]

How does this relate to the top division seceding from the Football League in the 90s to create the EPL? Do both cups predate that?

[/quote]

The FA Cup goes back to 1872!

‘The historic first final took place at Kennington Oval before a crowd of 2,000. At the time football matches were played without crossbars or goalnets.
There were no free kicks or penalties and the pitch markings did not include a centre-circle or a half-way line.
Wanderers gained the first of their five victories in the competition but it was only by a single goal scored by a certain Morton Peto Betts, mysteriously playing under the pseudonym A.H.Chequer.
Wanderers had the pick of all the best players who had been at the public schools and universities, yet it was the Royal Engineers from Chatham who took the field as favourites.’

The League Cup is more recent (as I remember the first one!):

‘The League Cup was introduced in the 1960-61 season specifically as a mid-week floodlit tournament. In the early years of the competition, many of the top teams declined to take part, and it was only when automatic entry to the UEFA Cup was promised to the winners that the full League membership took part.’

[QUOTE=fetus]

How many of those first three rounds are knockouts, and how many are round-robins? If they’re round-robin groups, it sounds like that cup would take an awful long time.

[/quote]

I think they start as two-legged KO. Remember that this is a big money-spinner, with TV audiences all over Europe as well as the crowds at the game.

[QUOTE=fetus]

Has there ever been an amateur team that made an impressive run in the FA Cup? There’s an amateur team called FC Roma (Texas, not Italia) that’s taking the US Open Cup, which seems basically equivalent, by storm. Does that happen over there?

[/quote]

As shown above, I think most teams were amateur at the start.

Here is the classic amateur team:

‘The aims of the Club are to promote fair play and sportsmanship, to play competitive football at the highest level possible whilst remaining strictly amateur and retaining the ideals of the Corinthian and the Casuals Football Clubs.’

http://www.corinthian-casuals.com/news.php

‘The Corinthians were founded in 1882. N.L. Jackson who was then Assistant Honorary Secretary of the Football Association aimed to develop a club side capable of challenging Scotland at international level. A meeting was held at Jackson’s offices in London’s Paternoster Row and this was when the club was born. The name came from a suggestion by England international H A Swepstowe which was unanimously accepted. Within 4 years there were 9 Corinthians in the England team that drew 1-1 with Scotland. Between 1883 and 1890, 52 of the 88 caps awarded against Scotland went to Corinthian players. Corinthians fielded the full England side twice in 1894 and 1895, both matches against Wales.’

11

Thanks again to all who’ve responded, quite enlightening. One more question: How does a team’s Cup performance one year affect its spot the next season, other than the FA Cup winner/finalist getting a UEFA Cup spot? Does the UEFA Cup winner/finalist get a Champions League spot? How about other domestic tournaments? Do their winners/finalists get automatic spots in Champions League or UEFA Cup?

12

glee, great historical info–thanks! When I asked if there’s ever been an amateur team that made a serious impression at the FA Cup, I guess what I really meant was, has there been an amateur team that made a serious impression in the age of professionalism and ridiculously high-salaried megastars?

13

there was a controversy about this when Liverpool won the Champion’s League. As it happens they had failed to qulaify bu their league position that year, and after a lot of debate, in the end they were allowed to come in via the qualifiers. The rules were clarified at the same, basically saying the same thing wouldn’t happen again. If the same circumstances arise again, it would be up to the FA (or equivalent body for the other leagues) to replace the 4th placed qualfier with the previous years cup champions.

14

I don’t get it. If Liverpool got in by winning their qualifiers, why didn’t they have a right to play in the thing? :confused:

15

There was some confusion over what would happen to Liverpool after they won the Champion’s League a few years ago, they were the first team to win the final one season but fail to qualify for the competition (by finishing in the top 4 of the Premiership) the following season. This left them in the position where they would be unable to defend their title. The decision was eventually made to allow them to enter in the preliminary rounds which meant they had to win several games in order to reach the point they would otherwise have entered. There has now been a rule put in place that states that if the reigning champions fail to qualify by normal means they will be given the place of the fourth placed finisher, i.e. if the champions finish 5th in the league then the Champion’s League spots would go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th, 4th place would be out of luck.

The number of teams that a nation can enter into the Champions League varies depending on how strong the top league of that nation is perceived to be. You can see the current situation regarding how many UEFA Cup and CL spots are awarded to each nation here.

16

[QUOTE=fetus]
I don’t get it. If Liverpool got in by winning their qualifiers, why didn’t they have a right to play in the thing? :confused:
[/QUOTE]

see mittu’s post. they had qualfiied the year they won it, it’s the following year where the authorities fudged it to get them in to defend their title.

17

Hrmph. Sounds fishy to me. If the team doesn’t qualify, too freakin’ bad. I’m a bit partial to Liverpool myself, but sheesh, they shoulda won some more games if they wanted to defend their title. What if a team wins the Champions League and their top players turn free agents or retire, and they finish in the bottom third of the table? They don’t get to defend their title because they didn’t earn the chance–if I ran the world, anyway.

18

GLEE.
Betts used the pseudonym A.H. Chequer because he was “A Harrow Chequer or Harrow Old Boy”.
He used this because The Wanderers were drawn against Harrow Chequers in the first round, so it was a simple deceit which is no longer permitted under FA rules.

MITTU.

Actually Steeple Sinderby Wanderers won the FA Cup when they were a Non League team beating Glasgow Rangers 1-0 in the final, the goal being scored by the immortal Swift in the dying seconds.

Wanderers Team:

                                                TONKS

HARDCASTLE ORMSKIRK CRUMMOCK MAIDSTONE

HUTTON MIDGELY SLINGSBY MONTAGU

                             SWIFT                      SLEDMER

Really, Its’a novel by J.L. Carr…worth a read :smiley:

19

Ooops the title being “How Steeple Sinderby Wanderers won the FA Cup”

ISBN. 1-85375-363-7

20

That is one way of looking at it but the feeling was that it would devalue the next years Champions League if the reigning champions weren’t taking part. In order to become the new club champions of Europe you should have to either beat the current champions or beat a team that beat the current champions and so on.

I wasn’t a fan of the new rule because as a Spurs fan we faced being the first victims of this new rule as we looked like we might finish 4th but Arsenal who were in the final of the champions league were in 5th place. Had the league finished like that and Arsenal won the CL then we would have been entered into the UEFA cup instead. As it turns out Arsenal lost the final and Spurs ended up finishing 5th due in no small part to a large number of our first-team players being taken ill the night before our final match of the season. I don’t care what all the medical reports say, I still think Wenger poisoned our boys!! :wink: