European Union - You're kidding, right?

This is a very interesting thread. happyheathen, I also love the map site, & probably own too many European maps. ** clairobscur**, I learned a little more about the Schengen agreement after your post. Thanks. http://www.jmk.su.se/jmk/eurorep/18.html is intriguing. As an American in Europe at times, I have been stopped at certain borders, like between Austria and the Czech Republic, so now I have a better idea about what’s going on. My personal observation is that Europe seems to be getting more unified. I see the blue EU flag more and more.

From personal observations, the UK seems to be different in this regard. I notice other nationalities, like Spanish, representing themselves as European first. At least that’s my experience.

Your link is quite old. The Schengen agreement now include all EU countries except the UK and Ireland, plus Norway (If I’m not mistaken). But I don’t know how it’s actually enacted by the various members. I’ve no clue about the current situation re. the issue mentionned in your link (police chasing through boundaries), for instance. I don’t know whether or not there still are border controls between some countries, either. But the general rule is that there’s none and you won’t even notice you just crossed the frontier if you don’t pay attention to the signs.
The Czech Republic isn’t a member of the EU (at least not currently but it should soon enter the Union), so it’s not surprising that you have been stopped at the Czech boundary.
Also, though the UK isn’t part of the agreement, people coming from the UK to France aren’t checked while people coming from France to the UK are. In any case, even concerning the UK and Ireland, you don’t need a passport in the EU. Border control or not, an ID is enough.
IME, very few people consider themselves European first and Spanish, French, German, etc…second. But more and more, especially the younger people, beside their own citizenship, consider themselves as europeans too, while their parents would have considered themselves as citizens of a particular nation which happened to be member of the EEC, and did not feel any personnal link to the Union. The appearance of this personnal feeling of belonging is IMO the most significant evolution.
However, I’m living in a country which was a founding member ot the EEC. So, people here have been slowly accustomed to a more and more integrated community. They were born with some loose trade agreement, as young adults they voted for the first elected parliament, and a common currency appeared when they were middle-aged. I don’t know to which extent it makes a difference when you become a new member (say Finland) of a preexisting and fully formed EU. The day before you were a totally independant country, the day after, you get an european parliament and commission, you’re subjected to a countless number of regulations, etc…I suppose the ordinary man in the street is more likely to feel less confident about this novelty. Though I possibly chosen a poor example with Finland since apparently, for some reason, Finnish people seemed to be very fond of Europe.
I must also add that the EU doesn’t necessarily have any noticeable consequences on the everyday life of most people (I insist on noticeable…it has a lot of consequences, but the random guy won’t necessarily notice/be aware of them), with the significant exception of the Euro, so a lot of people simply don’t care much. Still, they hear a lot about it, so they get accustomed to the idea.

So, among the regs (a recurring theme, it seems, when the EU is mentioned), are there attempts to grant eclusivity in economic markets?

Can any product be marketed (without unequal taxation) by any concern, anywhere? Are subsidies granted to companies by EU? (we know about national subsidies - is the EU taking sides?)

What I’m thinking is, if production is limited, the possibility arises of another Soviet system - one supplier, one price, no options.
(all that would be required would be protectionist (Hi W!) tariffs to prevent foreign imports, then what?

While I wouldn’t expect europe to support many companies of the scale of Airbus, some internal competition would seem desirable.

Besides the mirage and harrier, does any other european country produce fighters?

Well let’s see:

Panavia Tornado.
Eurofighter 2000 (aka Typhoon in RAF service).
Dornier AlphaJet.
AMX.
BAe Hawk.
Saab J35 Draaken.
Saab J37 Viggen.
Saab JAS39 Gripen.
SEPECAT Jaguar,
Dassault Rafale.
Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard.

OK, try it this way:

UK, Franch, Sweden, Italy (components, joint-effort with Brazil). any other countries fly their own? What is to replace them?

and, about central planning of economies… any takers?

The EU countries are market economies.

This thread’s not so much a GD as an absurdly vague GQ.

“Market Economy” can mean many things (ask any farmer).

The Q stands - who/what/where industries are favored, and is such favorism just/wise?

Thus far I have purpose fully avoided engaging in this thread due to the disingenuous nature of the OP. I am glad to see that others, especially** Clairobscur** and UDS have made the effort to provide educational material. I’ll emphasize that the EU is in fact a result of all the strife that happyhethen thinks we are unable to overcome, and that like the Civil War in the America created a deep understanding of the need to coexist peacefully WWII did for the Europe. Anyone that thinks that the EU is failing and who wishes to educate themselves as to how wrong this is might want to peruse this thread:

Do the Europeans really want to be part of the EU?

In there you might also eradicate some misconceptions about the nature of our Union.

Well happyheathen. If you want an answer to that I think you had better tour the cities and counties of EU, ask the mayors, city council members, county trade development agencies, management funds, local entrepreneurial funds, county counselors and what-not what their specific region prefers to do in order to attract various businesses.

Obviously some of these counties, cities, towns and even states will have some weird preference for say ice cream manufacturers or the arms industry based on some conception that they can carve out a competitive edge in the regional strife to create wealth and employment opportunities.

But seriously… you are joking right? I mean, you do know that the EU is a free market economy? You do know how that works?

If not; the short answer is that there is no meddling by the federal state in what industry is to be allowed to prosper and there is no state planned production or enterprise.

The long answer is that every state or super-state structure including, but not only Delaware, the Punjab, Aquitaine, Japan, the EU, and the United States of America will have a certain interest in forwarding their strongest industries since it is their main source of income. The financial measures used to control these interests are usually tariffs on imports and tax subsidies on exports. These measures will be applied differently in different industries in all the nations that I know of at least.

The irony of your question is of course that the EU in its free trade union form serves to make sure that no one does that in Europe. Hence it would rather be correct to say that the EU is against favoring any industry. Now the world isn’t that simple and, for instance, we have pretty long and complex trade war between the EU and US that is going on as we type. In that trade war the two parties will favor their respective strongest industries and try to hit the opponent where it hurts the most financially and politically. Thus do we end up with for instance French cheese import tariffs by the US and orange import tariffs by the EU. French cheese irritated the French enough to force through lifting some painful trade sanctions the US wanted out. The orange tariff hurts Bush badly by targeting the economy in electorates he needs to be popular in, thus they twist the US administration’s arm to lift some of their tariffs that really hurt the EU.

Any state will also subsidize desirable but non-profitable industries such as the fine arts. The EU does quite a lot in this area compared to the US. This is partly due to slightly different view on how culture should be nurtured. While as the US tends towards sponsoring, the EU tends towards subsidies, both with the motivation that art should be free from influence. In this respect the US puts it trust to enterprise while the EU puts its trust to regional government, or the people if you like. It seems that the US system is more successful in creating a commercially viable arts and entertainment industry, while the EU is more successful in sustaining cultural tradition in the fine arts, especially seen from an educational perspective.

As regards the federal subsidy system in the EU; it is widely misunderstood. First of all it is a very limited amount of money that is redistributed to the regions. The reasons for the system are more than anything connected to monetary policy. With the lack of reinsurance system that a federal fiscal and tax union like the US provides the EU needs to create another way of handling asymmetric shock to the economy within the business cycle. It’s rather well and beyond this class and I shall only direct you here if you care to understand more. In that post you shall also find links to some scholarly work on the matter. The thread also answers pretty much any of the questions that the OP asks.

There is a controversial part to the subsidy system, which is the agricultural subsidy system. Due to the redistribution needs as described above a significant portion of the subsidies will go to agriculture. Even the US has limited form of this system, beyond the existing reinsurance mechanisms. The reason is that agriculture will be more sensitive than other industries to extra cyclic variations in profitability due to its nature of being nature, and the relatively low profitability parameters that we have an interest in maintaining in the industry that feeds us and hence remains a most essential part of survival. Even if the agricultural subsidy system is fairly small it is vital to the EU farmers, just like reinsurance through the state is for US farmers, which they see on their tax bill instead of in cash like the EU farmers see theirs. Both the US and EU have tried to use the various advantages of the two systems against each other. Both the EU and the US have protested that the other side is playing foul. Within the EU member states have been known to play dirty against their sister states in this area by attempting to skew subsidy rules and regulations to forward their regional interest and by exerting power through strikes and blockades in order to weed out more money from the federal government. The farmers of Spain and France are especially notorious in using such tactics.

Does that answer you question happyheathen?

Sparc

Let’s see where your new thread leads before continuing this one.

Still some Q’s and skepticism.

More later.

Sparc said “Thus far I have purpose fully avoided engaging in this thread due to the disingenuous nature of the OP”. Amen to that.

David Weman, cdw: “This thread’s not so much a GD as an absurdly vague GQ”. I would rather say an absurdly vague and misinformed rant.
happyheathen

>> So, among the regs (a recurring theme, it seems, when the EU is mentioned), are there attempts to grant eclusivity in economic markets?

What the hell are you talking about? I have no clue of what you are asking.

>> Can any product be marketed (without unequal taxation) by any concern, anywhere?

Value Added Tax varies by country just like sales tax varies by state. Other than that there is free commerce inside the EU just like there is free commerce inside the US. What’s your problem with that?

>> Are subsidies granted to companies by EU? (we know about national subsidies - is the EU taking sides?)

Subsidies to business are very strictly limited in the EU and some governments have been forced to reverse certain subsidies already granted. One of the few sectors which is subsidised is agriculture. Pretty much like in the US.

>> What I’m thinking is, if production is limited, the possibility arises of another Soviet system - one supplier, one price, no options.
(all that would be required would be protectionist (Hi W!) tariffs to prevent foreign imports, then what?

What the hell are you talking about?

>> While I wouldn’t expect europe to support many companies of the scale of Airbus, some internal competition would seem desirable.

How many airplane manufacturers does the US have? How many nuclear submarine manufacturers?

happyheathen, you are not debating anything, you are just showing extreme ignorance about the topic at hand. How can you have any position on the topic with such lack of knowledge? Your position is plain and simple prejudice with no basis in fact.

>> Still some Q’s and skepticism.

Gimme a break