Europeans: How do you really feel about America?

[Odesio]

@UselessGit

5. If America were a disease, its symptom would by hypocrisy.

Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy is?

To protect freedom, you must waive basic rights;

What basic rights? Free speech, the ability to worship freely, the right to peaceful assebly, the right to petition the government?

violence on TV is A-OK, while nudity is bound to make your kids go crazy;

That’s not an example of hypocrisy it’s just an example of silly standards.

no-one should have nuclear weapons, except for the USA and its friends;

That’s not hypocrisy. It’s one thing for Great Britian to have nukes but do we really think it’s ok for North Korea or Iran having them?

all humans have the same rights, unless there is the merest inkling of a suggestion of a shadow of a hint that they might be terrorists, in which case they have no rights at all. Just to take a few examples.

Unfortunately just because we might believe something to be true doesn’t mean it applies under US law. As we’ve been reminded by plenty of foreign dopers the Constitution doesn’t apply outside the United States.

Marc

[Kyla]

@UselessGit

I have a sneaky suspicion that a portion of Americans either don’t know about the rest of the world or hate it too much to visit, though (the Bible Belt factor

I like to think that no one in the US hates the rest of the world, but you’re absolutely right about the not knowing anything about it factor. It’s disturbing.

OTOH, I don’t get the feeling that Europeans know very much about the US either. Sadly, it’s probably our own fault, thanks to our media. For instance, the idea that Americans are all racist and totally preoccupied by race probably comes from movies. It’s absolutely true that race is a very touchy point in American society (given our history, how could it be otherwise?), which makes it a good source of conflict in movies, books, and TV. But in daily life, people don’t make that much of a big deal out of it. We wouldn’t be able to function as a society if we were really that preoccupied with race! And still, you see it in movies and TV shows all the time. (Like that new “Guess Who” movie, f’r instance.) It’s no wonder people who aren’t as familiar with actual Americans would think we spend all our time freaking out about not stepping on each others’ toes.

[UselessGit]

@MGibson

Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy is?

I looked into this a bit for you and it does seem that the word I’m looking for is a cross between ‘hypocrisy’ and ‘double standard’–the nuke thing being hypocritical, for example. I sincerely apologize for the heinous misuse of your beautiful language, sir, and cry your pardon. I don’t think this is a debate, so I’ll leave it at that, tempted as I am not to.

Mehitabel: Well, that would just be another reason for me to love you guys! No executions since 1976 sounds darn impressive.

We abolished slavery soon after converting to Lutherism, around the year 1000, and the death penalty was thrown out in 1830 when we, the barbaric Viking nation that we are, decided it was inhumane. My government has never killed a child or someone mentally retarded, for example, but we don’t claim to be a model of righteousness, a shining beacon of hope to the opressed masses in strategically important countries outside of Afrika, a land of the free or even a home to the brave–we have neither the right nor will to tell other countries how to behave, so we tactfully refrain therefrom.

I do apologize for the three sentences above being ‘snooty’ (not to mention stretching the sentential boundaries re length & punctuation), although that’s probably the wrong word… any suggestions, Marc?

[Mehitabel]

Whoops…actually the DP was abolished in NY (and the rest of the country) in 1996, but NY State hadn’t executed anyone since 1963. 1948 for Massachusetts. And these are two of the most populous and important states in the nation.

You do know that the death penalty is a state thing, right? Only a few states allowed execution of the mentally retarded and juveniles, right? And it’s impossible for the voters of one state to go and force people in another to change their laws? We’re very mobile. Don’t like gay marriage? You’re free to picket or lobby the MA Legislature, or move to Kansas. Want stricter gun laws? You can move to Vermont or DC. And so on.

Just wanted to point out that you can’t lump fifty states together and say “America does this” or “America believes that”. Now, there is indeed a DP on the federal level, but it’s been used only twice since 1963, and one of them was domestic terrorist Tim McVeigh in 2001. Here’s a good survey.

[Mehitabel]

D’oh–I meant 1965. And the DP was reinstated in NY State in 1995, but it’s never been used and is currently being seriously challenged again. In 1976 the Supreme Court allowed states to use it again.

[UselessGit]

Ooh, that’s actually a very good point, Mehitabel; I have to keep reminding myself not to look at the USA as one big country but 50 smaller ones, and I daresay my fellow Europeans should be doing the same. It’s just a little difficult for most of us to grasp the US’s sheer size, not least if we’re from tiny islands ourselves.

For the record, I did know all these things but the OP asks about America–which is probably good since 50 smaller threads would be… erm… multiple–and not individual states. I think most of my views are fairly common, although they are admittedly more sweeping than Hexia de Trix’s besom and can hardly be considered as fair criticism of the US as a whole. Have you guys ever considered splitting the states up? Generalizing about, say, Kentucky is much easier and fairer than the whole US of A, no? Dang those German-beer-drinking Kentuckians and all their turtles of snapping! shakes fist

Again, I am not debating the DP’s existence, its scope, its acceptance in American society, its validity (Marc?) or anything else–this is just my honest opinion. The death penalty, simply, is there–it’s a stain on your society and I don’t like it. Not one bit. Sorry.

[Odesio]

@UselessGit

I looked into this a bit for you and it does seem that the word I’m looking for is a cross between ‘hypocrisy’ and ‘double standard’–the nuke thing being hypocritical, for example.

Irrational standards or perhaps askewed priorities might be more befitting.

Marc

[SlyFrog]

[QUOTE=UselessGit]
My government has never killed a child or someone mentally retarded . . . .
[/quote[

While I may agree with you politically, you do realize that by stating these examples, along with a presumption that your country’s viewpoints on these issues are “right,” you are effectively -

@UselessGit

. . . for example, but we don’t claim to be a model of righteousness, a shining beacon of hope to the opressed masses in strategically important countries outside of Afrika, a land of the free or even a home to the brave–we have neither the right nor will to tell other countries how to behave, so we tactfully refrain therefrom.

Contradicting yourself in the second quoted paragraph. You make smug statements about “killing children,” but you don’t claim to be a model of righteousness, blah blah. By definition, when you criticize another country’s actions, you are holding your own viewpoint to be correct, and thereby better.

I mean, let’s turn this around, just for the sake of argument. My government doesn’t give murders free room and board for the rest of their lives at the expense of society, and shy away from exacting the appropriate punishment/deterrent because the person is a year or two less than some arbitrarily set age wherein one is deemed “an adult.” My country believes that those who have the mental capacity to commit the ultimate crime of murder also have the mental capacity to be punished for such crime, just as their victims were harmed by the crime irrespective of the mental capacity of the perpetrator. Fortunately, we have a belief system that we deem important, and rather than sit back and watch the world flow by and become uglier and uglier, we roll up our sleeves and attempt to do something to better it, blah blah blah.

I think one of the things that annoys me most about the “boastful” Amercian’s line is that it is really hard to be accused of being brash and bold, and attempting to impose your views on the world, by those who appear to be brashly and boldly attack your every move because it does not agree with their worldview.

I do not believe that the issue is the U.S. having strongly held beliefs that others disagree with. I hear enough yammering from Europeans to believe that they have the very same problem. They just lack the power they had 100 years ago to impress it upon others, and they are now afraid that the U.S. will impress upon them.

[hildea]

@SlyFrog

By definition, when you criticize another country’s actions, you are holding your own viewpoint to be correct, and thereby better.

My own viewpoint, yes, but not neccessarily my country’s viewpoint. For instance, I can criticise EU for a shitty policy towards refugees and asylum seekers, while feeling that my own country can give it a run for the money in the shittness department.

I do not believe that the issue is the U.S. having strongly held beliefs that others disagree with. I hear enough yammering from Europeans to believe that they have the very same problem. They just lack the power they had 100 years ago to impress it upon others, and they are now afraid that the U.S. will impress upon them.

I’m sure that’s an important reason for the uneasiness a lot of people feel towards USA. (The shape of your helmets doesn’t help ) When Norway’s government does something specatcularily shitty or stupid, only a handful of million people are affected, and the rest of you ususally don’t even notice (unless big charismatic sea mammals are involved…). USA’s government has the power to fuck up things all over the world. I’ll freely admit that if I had the power to magically make EU replace USA as the world’s superpower, I’d need a long and hard think to pick the least of two evils.

@Orual

What in blue blazes is “American Hair”?

The English (note, I’m not saying “brits” here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they’re skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl?

[Zoe]

Mehitabel: Only a few states allowed execution of the mentally retarded and juveniles, right?

I think I am correct that execution for crimes committed by juveniles is no longer allowed in any states.

I’ve found that most of the comments from non-Americans in this thread have been quite reasonable. I have to keep reminding myself that the media does give a lot of attention to the loudmouths and that may make the religious right seem stronger than they really are. I’m certainly hoping that is the case.

Mycroft, I can certainly support your main points. But even though you have extensive experience with living in the United States, I must disagree with you on two opinions:

(1)The complete lack of culture in large parts of the country.

If you really believe this to be true, could you be more specific? Even little fishing villages have opera houses and rural communities have music clubs and give birth to writers and artists. Further, there is always the question of what constitutes “culture.”

(2)The “American Dream” is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.

I’ve known too many exceptions to this rule personally for this to be true. (Maybe inherited wealth is more likely to happen in certain parts of the country that I am not as familiar with.) But I’ve seen “the American Dream” happen again and again right under my nose.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@Zoe

Mycroft, I can certainly support your main points. But even though you have extensive experience with living in the United States, I must disagree with you on two opinions:

(1)The complete lack of culture in large parts of the country.

If you really believe this to be true, could you be more specific? Even little fishing villages have opera houses and rural communities have music clubs and give birth to writers and artists. Further, there is always the question of what constitutes “culture.”

(2)The “American Dream” is bullshit. How many dishwashers actually become millionaires? The richest people in the U.S. have not worked their way up from their lower class roots. They already started out in highly privileged situations compared to some kid growing up in the projects.

I’ve known too many exceptions to this rule personally for this to be true. (Maybe inherited wealth is more likely to happen in certain parts of the country that I am not as familiar with.) But I’ve seen “the American Dream” happen again and again right under my nose.

By lack of culture I don’t mean that there are no opera houses, music clubs, etc. I just think they are “used” a lot less than here in Europe. I know, I’m generalizing, and usually I hate to do that, but there is a kernel of truth in what I meant to say. Clearly there are fans of classical music, theater, cinema whatever in most areas of the U.S. But the general feeling I get is that more people (when compared to Europe) get their entertainment from reality TV (even though this was a Dutch invention), soap operas and TV in general.

As to (2), there are always exceptions. But I think the odds of going from rags to riches are no higher in the U.S. than they are in Europe. There are plenty of people in Europe who have also become successful on their own due to hard work, a good education and maybe a bit of luck too. What I don’t like is the fact that the U.S. is often seen as the “land of opportunity”, yet there are so many poor and disenfranchised who never get a chance. Note: we have that here in Europe also, but probably to a lesser extent. Yet in the U.S. the less well-to-do are often told: “It’s your fault. You should be running your own company and own two homes by the time you’re fifty. If not, it’s because you’re lazy and shifty”.

For an example of this, look at this trainwreck of a thread, where inkleberry is told by some people it’s her own damn fault she’s poor and living in a bad neighborhood, because she decided to have a baby (which was not planned). I also agree with her, when she says this:

@inkleberry

6 weeks of maternal leave with partial pay is obscene. Day care is exorbanent, not regulated as well as one might hope or expect, and frankly, not a place I would ever leave my son.

This country shafts its working class.

This is an example of a country ignoring it’s future (the children) and only thinking about the present.

I think that’s my main gripe with the U.S. The country is so wrapped up in the “here and now” that very little thought is given to future generations. One of the symptoms of this is the huge consumption of natural resources compared to other first-world countries.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@SlyFrog

I’d be a bit uncomfortable in the Netherlands, fearing that I might be murdered in the street by religious extremists. I understand that the level of religious persecution and zealotry over there is truly frightening from the news I read.

You forgot to put a smiley at the end of that. Some people might think you’re being serious.

Either that, or you need some new sources of news.

Here in the Netherlands you need to watch out for bicyclists trying to run you over, not murderous religious extremists.

[dangermom]

@Mycroft Holmes

By lack of culture I don’t mean that there are no opera houses, music clubs, etc. I just think they are “used” a lot less than here in Europe. I know, I’m generalizing, and usually I hate to do that, but there is a kernel of truth in what I meant to say. Clearly there are fans of classical music, theater, cinema whatever in most areas of the U.S. But the general feeling I get is that more people (when compared to Europe) get their entertainment from reality TV (even though this was a Dutch invention), soap operas and TV in general.

I dunno about that. I grew up in a small-ish town, and I live in a medium-sized town, and in both there is quite a bit of ‘culture,’ even though the big cities are hours away. Here in my city, I can see performances from all over the world, listen to many different local music groups, and see (if not operas) operettas. We don’t run to a real orchestra, but we have several small ensembles of different types. To be honest, I see more classy performances here than I ever did when I lived in the CA Bay Area, because they’re so much easier to get to and don’t cost much. The venue is usually crowded.

Sure, of course we have TV-watchers too. But that’s not all there is. (Another honest note: when I lived in Scandinavia with another family, there was a lot more TV-watching going on than in my own family, and I don’t remember seeing a lot of high culture performances, let alone opera.)
I don’t know, maybe you’re right, but I’ve also had kind of a hard time seeing my own completely American family in this thread. I mean, I come from a very ordinary middle-class small-town family, (and I’m married to a guy whose family is only less well-off and sophisticated) but we do know a bit about the rest of the world; of 5 kids, all of us have lived overseas and have studied at least one other language. (OK, my one brother is a little odd; I’m not even sure how many languages he knows.) Of my 5 sisters-in-law (on either side), one is a US citizen. Of people I know, my family is a little on the diverse side, but we’re not exactly unusual IME either. So looking at all these statements of “Americans are really insular and uncultured,” well, I know there’s plenty of that, but there’s lots on the other side of the scale as well–and perhaps it’s changing faster then we generally realize.

shrug I’m not trying to say everyone is wrong; just that it’s not been my own experience and I think it may be changing, and it’s not like I come from some incredibly cultured New York family.

[Fortean]

It’s interesting to note that the UK at least has recently opted for a OMG THE MERRIKENS ARE TAKING OVER mentality just as much as some people in the US are scared out of their tiny minds about Anti-Americanism, the new threat to everything we hold sacred. So it’s an interesting problem. Some people in the US act stupid cause they’re scared, everyone else is scared cos they’re acting stupidly, calls them big stupid poopyheads, US gets more defensive, und so weiter.

Personally what I perceive as the main problem is what someone else (probably owlstretching) said - that Europeans expect the US to be very similar to Europe, and because it isn’t, its scary. For example, here are all the things that we sometimes have different opinions about - bearing in mind of course that it is VERY VERY GENERALISED INDEED:

• abortion
• guns
• big cars vs small ones
• the environment
• socialised medicine
• socialism in general
• liberal religion
• mobile phones
• work/life balance
• evolution
• stem cells
• euthanasia
• heritage
• teh gays
• libertarianism
• patriotism
• drugs
• sex
• alcohol
• cheese
• marmite
• shepherd’s pie
• roundabouts
• feminism
• death penalty
• yep, I’ve run out of steam
  Especially freaky for us brits, who get loads of news and cultural references from the US, yet have a weird uncanny valley thing going on in terms of personality.

[Malacandra]

@hildea

The English (note, I’m not saying “brits” here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they’re skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl?

Meh. Say what you like; your words have not much sting. We’ve had you filed under “Mostly Harmless” ever since Harald Hardrada got his comeuppance, and you talk about us pining for lost glories?

Btw, any truth in the rumour that on the Eurovision song contest, your entry is now officially titled “Norway - nul points” :wally

[Johnny_L.A]

@hildea

The English (note, I’m not saying “brits” here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe

I’ve seen lots of very attractive English women. If one would have me, I’m ready to relocate!

[owlstretchingtime]

@hildea

The English (note, I’m not saying “brits” here) are commonly known as the ugliest people in Europe - they’re skinny, pale and have ugly knees. And since they used to have an empire and lost it, Englishmen are terribly worried about the size of their penises. (Englishwomen have big balls and are rightly proud of it). Throwing incomprehensible insults at their replacement on the empire scene is an attemt to compensate.
Did I get that right, owl?

Pining for the Fjords are we?

There are some races that are generally more pretty than us, but norway is not one of them! Funny looking hairy faced people with odd looking jumpers and plastic shoes (Incidentally “Odd” is a christian name in Norway - “Hello I’m Odd. I’m from Norway”), the men are bloody funny looking as well.

They’re basically spare swedes, with the fun-time attributes of the Finns, and the dress sense of the Russians. And they eat raw fish. And pay £10 for a beer.

It’s not just the ones called Odd that are wrong 'uns!

[Rashak_Mani]

@hildea

I used to believe that Americans and Europeans were, despite everything, basically similar. Same cultural background, joined in enjoying a wildly unfair portion of the wealth of the planet, all that. But when grazing various message boards, I discover every now and then some angle that make you seem completely, utterly alien. Not neccessarily bad …

I have this feeling too… better off Brazilians have quite a lot in common with Europeans and we also thought with Americans. I lived abroad half my life and so I feel I understand the differences between europeans and americans. I think individual americans aren’t that different… but the values, culture and political system in the US are further from Europe and Latin America than ever before. Its like its another wierd western culture… detached from the mainstream West… naturally blue states aren’t as hardcore.

What I venture most do admire about America is how the economic system does work… free enterprise, etc… They economic dynamism is incredible and with it all sorts of stuff one can buy and have. All sorts of cultural products from Movies to RPGs are american…

[SlyFrog]

@Mycroft Holmes

You forgot to put a smiley at the end of that. Some people might think you’re being serious.

Either that, or you need some new sources of news.

Here in the Netherlands you need to watch out for bicyclists trying to run you over, not murderous religious extremists.

I was trying to make a point that nearly every country can be made into a shithole if you read the daily news, much as I think too many Europeans think that most of the U.S. is some type of bible-thumping warzone based on the biased and sensationalist material that is out there.

For example, in response to your statement, it’s my understanding from recent events that what you need to watch out for in the Netherlands not being run over by bicyclists, but instead being murdered by religious extemists while you are riding a bicycle.

[eleanorigby]

I think it’s a fair cop.

I am an American and have been to Europe twice and UK twice (not all at the same times).

I feel very at home in UK and in Germany and some of France (don’t know French, so that makes it more difficult for me to feel comopletley at home).

But then, I was raised with a world view, and never taught (at home) to consider USA the be all and end all of everything–a good, even great thing, among other good things. So, perhaps I am not typical.

Please just know that there are many of us here that are as concerned about the enviroment, women’s and family’s rights, socialized medicine, the rise of teh reigious Right etc as you are.

“Socialism” is a very dirty word in America–dunno why, really–IMO, people equate it with Communism, a nother whole ball of wax, indeed.

As for the death penalty–yep, I think it is sick as hell --especially someone who is mentally retarded or under age. But, as you can see, not all Americans hold that view. My former governor, who has been plagued by scandal (and rightly so) did do one shining thing in his time: he froze all executions in Illinois d/t a study done by students at Northwestern Uni. The current governor has upheld that ban (thank god).

I agree in general with the statements re: poor education, but also think that there is more good here than you may be aware of. Certainly, I benefitted from an excellent high school and uni. But overall, students barely get any US history and civics now, much less European–Asian et al is completely ignored, except for things like the opium trade and Pearl Harbor. Sad, really, when we ahve shrunk the world to where we all need to know more about one another.

And last thing: I love my long, thick, shiny, American hair.