Understandably, Sept. 11th has brought about an intense feeling of nationalism in the US. However, even prior to that sad day, one of the marked differences between the US and Europe was the use of flags. It has always been the case that you will never be far from the stars and stripes in the US but you very rarely see the Union Jack flying over private property in the UK. Is this because there is just a stronger sense of nationalism in the US or are they laws governing the usage of flags in European countries?
I believe you mean patriotism instead of nationalism.
I’ve never been to Europe and I don’t know about the flag laws. A personal anecdote though: I did go to a summer camp that had people from other countries serving as counselors. Almost every counselor brought their country’s flag along with them for display in the cabins.
Oh, I think bmerton means “nationalism” – which is a perfectly legitimate way to describe flag-waving, but not the word most Americans would choose. As a general rule, Americans perceive public displays of national symbols as positive and not particularly controversial; Europeans tend to be much more uncomfortable with them. I don’t know whether this is the legacy of two world wars or just one of those cultural differences you shouldn’t read too much into, but it probably explains why Americans are more likely to display the flag on private property.
I’d be really surprised if all (or even most) European countries had strict flag laws; in my experience it’s Americans who tend to be both very proud and very touchy about their flag. But please correct me if they do.
I’ve seen flags on residences in European countries, including Germany, France, Belgium, Austria and Switzerland. The EU (European Union) flag was displayed by military aircraft over Brussels during their independence day celebration in July this year. Just my observations. This was all before 11 Sept.
I think bmerton’s observation is broadly correct; most European countries do not display their flags as broadly as is the case in the USA.
I would say Fretful Porpentine’s explanation goes a long way to explain this. In Europe, we do not consider displays of patriotic pride to be innocent. At best, they are considered vulgar, at worst dangerous.
Another point is that the flag is accorded a special sacred place in US national iconography. The national anthem is about the flag, the Pledge of Allegiance is to the flag, there are special laws and codes about the correct treatment and display of the flag. No other country I know elevates this particular national symbol to this extent.
HOWEVER, here in Sweden, lots of people fly the Swedish flag at their homes - I don’t know why.
Here, in France, the only time you would see a flag in a private home or house is when someone is elected to some public office. Then, customarily a tree or mast is erected in his garden with the tricolor. And AFAIK, only in southern France. I don’t remember having seen the flag in any private home for any other reason. Though probably it must happens that someone want to fly the flag in their garden for some reason, it must be more than rare. And his neighbors would certainly wonder why he did so and what he wants to express.
Apart from that, the flag is displayed on all public buildings. I do not doubt violet has seen plenty of flags, in Paris for instance, but I somewhat doubt she/he has seen one in a private home. also for Bastille Day and a couple of other public holydays,there are plenty of them in the streets, on buses, etc…
There are no particular law preventing you from flying the flag. It’s not just done.
Anyway, displaying too overtly your patriotism tend to be frowned upon by a lot of people (not by everybody, of course). It’s often associated with extreme-right political movements hence suspicious for many. Even politicians wouldn’t say in a public speech half of what I hear in an american’s president speech about the greatness of the country, etc…(apart from extreme-right politicians, once again).
I often read americans criticizing their country and who seeems to feel necessary to add than nevertheless they love it, etc, etc…I tend to assume they feel it would be frowned upon, or ressented as “anti-american”,not to do so.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I suspect that patriotism is in some way socially “mandatory” in the US. Not so here. Quite often the contrary.
I’m not sure if there’s a difference in the actual feeling people in the US and here have toward their country, but there’s certainly a difference in the way these feelings are displayed or not (and I suspect that what is done has certainly an influence on what is thought or felt).
And since someone refered to the pledge of allegiance, there’s nothing similar here. As I wrote in another thread, I suspect that most french people would associate this concept with fascit countries, dictatorships or such…
The only time I ever see flags is when the England football team are playing.
There are St.Georges flags everwhere. I have about 3. My mates and me all go out with them draped over our shoulders. And all the pubs have them up on the walls and in the windows.
As for the Union Flag/Jack I hardly ever see it. The churches near me all have the St.Georges flag up the flag pole.
So I asked my colleagues about flag-display in Sweden. They weren’t able to contribute much, except to point out that the Danes and the Norwegians also fly their flags a lot.
They felt that the flag-flyers are just regular average Swedes and do not represent a particular category or viewpoint. They denied it was an expression of pride in being Swedish, just a question of “I’m Swedish; I display a Swedish flag to say that”.
Also common here is a big long triangular flag in the Swedish colours, hung vertically, which is displayed day and night and in all weathers (the Swedes are careful to lower the flag at sunset). This is called a “wimpel”, and is not considered a flag.
Oh, and it’s illegal to burn the Swedish flag in Sweden.
So much I don’t know about this country…
I felt that the writers of the Simpsons didn’t quite grasp the differences in attitude in the episode where Lisa sees into the future. Homer’s Union Jack catches fire and he and Bart stamp it into some dung to extinguish the flames. We see this reflected in the fiance’s glasses, and we see his tears. I don’t really feel this joke works; Americans seem to read much more symbolic significance into the flag than British people. People would get more annoyed at seeing a flag of Scotland, England or Wales burnt, but not in the way that Americans would. Having said all this, flags seem to be much more of a political issue in Northern Ireland.
Hmmm… I notice a clear pattern here. Could it be that Americans view the flag as a sort of surrogate King, at least in the Patriotic Pride department?
Americans, myself included, have a difficult time understanding why Brits feel about the royals the way they do, especially their being powerless figureheads and such. But emotionally, they embody the pride of the country, and so it is also for the Merkins and our Flag.
The next time an American makes fun of a Brit for how they relate to the Queen et al, I’ll consider responding with something like, “Well, they don’t understand why we give so much respect to the flag, so there!”
Any comments?
I don’t know if I’d go so far to say that the flag is a “surrogate” monarch of any kind, it’s just the most recognized symbol of America as an entity - not just the country or the government, but the whole concept of our freedom and pride and…aw hell, it’s hard to put into words.
As for the Brits and their royals, lately I’ve developed a rather formidable respect for the Queen, especially in light of her reaction to the September 11 events and some of the things she did and said in various ceremonies and remembrances. I got all choked up when I read about her singing our national anthem…I can completely understand the British admiration for her.
I wonder if you’re under the misapprehension that there’s a great deal of affection for the royal family. Unfortunately there’s a huge (majority?) of the population (treasonous bastards, behead them!) who really couldn’t care less.
Anyway, displaying too overtly your patriotism tend to be frowned upon by a lot of people (not by everybody, of course). It’s often associated with extreme-right political movements hence suspicious for many. Even politicians wouldn’t say in a public speech half of what I hear in an american’s president speech about the greatness of the country, etc…(apart from extreme-right politicians, once again).
I think this is the reason too. The two main political parties in the U.S.A. are very similar. Extremism isn’t as great or widespread as in Europe.
If I may be so bold as to throw in my sociological $0.02
The US as a country is rather new and is characterized by a diverse multi-ethnic population united under the economic banner of capitalism. The land of opportunity and all. Since most of us are only a few generations removed from immigrants, we lack a coherent culture tied by ethnic similarity and solidified by thousands of years of history the way that most Western cultures are. Ours is a newer and less defined culture of secular Christmas gifts and pyrotechnic fourth-of-July celebrations celebrating tall, white forefathers whom many learn about on a citizen test. Because of this we are under constant pressure to affirm our patriotism through simple, culturally-independant symbols such as flag waving and pin-wearing, two outwardly visible indications of national alignment.
Most europeans are realieved of this burden through their cultural uniqueness. A Brit demonstrates his cultural identity through his manner of speech, his dress, and his personal mannerisms. The same is true for the denizins of most other Western countries. A French person can walk through his countryside confident that he is expressing his national identity though his very existance. An American on the otherhand is always afraid of his cultural ambiguity and so is always certain to demonstrate his soliditry for the group cause visibly.
This is why many of us have got flags taped to the windows of our car. Some of us want to say “I’m American God Damn It” and some of us get caught up with all our friends doing it and say “Ahhh, yeah, I’m American too”. Which is something that you feel you need to express when many of the people around you are speaking a foreign language and all your VCR instructions come in Korean and Arabac.
Interesting point, Mirage…
And I wish more Americans would learn and follow those laws and codes. I choose not to fly an American flag since I know the laws and codes and feel I generally could not pay the proper respect by following those laws (especially the bit about lowering the flag at dusk or properly illuminating it). However, a number of houses near mine are hanging the flag from their gutters over the garage 24/7 with no illumination. I do see some yards with flagpoles where the proper respect is paid to the flag, and am not surprised to see the people who do so appear to me to be veterans of US military service. But I’m tired of all of the neighbors who in a resurgance of nationalistic zeal fly the flat in all ways and means completely ignoring the codes and laws drafted to show the proper respect.
Does anyone else feel it is inappropriate and disrespectful to have the flag suck on automobile antennas where it gets horribly frayed and bug-coated? Ick.
(My rant for the afternoon… :D)
JOhn.
Growing up on the Canadian border, I noticed that the Maple Leaf flew just about everywhere across the Niagara River, and was used as a marketing and promotional device even more so than the Stars and Stripes on this side of the border. No pledges to the red and white, but during “normal” times in Canada their flag seemed as ubiqutious as the American flag post 9/11 on this side of the border.
The other thing that struck me about Canadian flag flying was the lack of reciprocity. In the Buffalo area, most government buildings, schools, shopping centers, hotels, museums and other places of importance flew the flags of both the United States and Canada. Across the border, if you saw a flag from a different country flying, it was usually the Union Jack. Same thing with television, too – TV stations in Buffalo close the broadcast day with both the US and Canadian national anthems; Toronto stations sign off with “Oh Canada” and “God Save the Queen.” The only places I’ve seen American flags flying in Canada are at hotels and strip joints.
I worked with a Spanish (I mean really from Spain, like just arrived in America) teacher who commented on all the flags.
He said that in Spain, the flag is a good bit more touchy, especially with the issue of Basque separatism in Spain.
My Swedish friend says that you just don’t get the same “I’m FRICKIN’ SWEDISH!” attitude over there, probably partly because you’re surrounded by so many different nationalities and so often meet the people from them or go there yourself.
I’ve been out of the country I think 5 times, and I’m 32. And two of those were day trips.
America has a pretty dismissive bearing toward its two neighbors, something on the order of “3 tanks and our Boy Scout troops, and your butt is ours” attitude.
This may be true, but [hijack] it doesn’t excuse the “dirty Mexican” thoughts that go through people’s heads (even mine before I ask myself what the heck I’m doing). [hijack]
It would be interesting to understand why you think that following these rules and regulations are really important. One would think that the flag being a symbol, flying it with or without the supposedly proper illumination should convey the same message, which would seem to be the most important for an innocent eye as opposed to purely formal rules.
I was taught to respect the flag. Allowing it to hang from a garage gutter in the dark is not respect, not at least according to my education from home (my dad did a stint in the Air Force and encouraged us show proper respect to the country, its leaders, and its flag) and several years in the BSA. Since even our national anthem talks about being able to see the flag in the midst of war, it seems very un-American to allow the flag to hang in a place where it cannot be easily seen.
To me, raising and lowering the flag at the appropriate times, or keeping it illuminated, is just as important as flying the flag in the correct orientation (stars in the upper left corner when facing the public, horizontal or vertical) and placing it in the proper position and at the proper height relative to other adjacent flags.
I currently do fly a rainbow-striped flag with blue field including stars at home. Since it is not an actual American flag, I don’t worry about it being out at night nor being rained on. I think flag-themed bunting qualifies a patriotic but non-flag, so I’d have no problem with ribbons and such being on display at all times. But an actual flag? No, I don’t support that.
(Mind you, I don’t go around to all my neighbors telling them they’re breaking the law, which technically they are. I think it would be unkind to cast flies into the nationalistic ointment that many of us need to heal and get beyond the events of September.)
JOhn.