Europeans: How do you really feel about America?

I hadn’t thought of the American Dream quite like that… the way I always understood it was that you weren’t bound to anything- if you were willing to work hard and take some chances, there wasn’t really a career that wasn’t open to you.

How many 19th century British Prime Ministers first worked as rail splitters? How many French generals were hide tanner’s sons? How many European industrialists started out as penniless immigrants? Not many, I’ll wager. Yet here in the US, it was possible.

With that lack of institutional barriers and a sort of meritocracy, comes a remarkable lack of class when compared to the rest of the world, I think. In my family alone, we’ve gone from uneducated longshoremen, butchers and coal miners to a firmly middle/upper middle class family where everyone is expected to go to college and hopefully get some kind of postgraduate degree. All that in 4 generations too.

I know many other people whose families have done similar things, and they come from all ethnic groups- black, hispanic, asian, etc…

I think it’s not so much that Europe doesn’t have similar opportunities, but it’s that Europe is catching up to the US in that regard.

Another thing for us europeans (God I hate that word!) to remember is that whilst we may have a mental image of the “typical yank” based on the ones we encounter here (Gap shirt, daft hat, shorts, American Hair etc) the plain fact is that these people aren’t in anyway typical.

I believe that only about 30% of the tea-dodgers have got passpoerts and also that their holiday time is very short in comparison with ours (they get one week’s leave every four years and a day off for Kwaanza). So in fact we never come accross the “typical yank” unless we go there.

There a dead mixed bunch - New Yorkers all act like they’re on crystal meth, People in LA are just mental, the mid west is VERY. ODD. INDEED., the south full of odd looking banjo pluckers and so on, they are far from homogenous.

Ignoring the ‘immigrant’ aspect (which is a specifically American element to a rags-to-riches story), off the top of my head there’s George Stephenson (son of a collier, became one of the founding fathers of railways), and Ramsay McDonald (illegitimate son of a ploughman, became the first Labour PM. Oh, and Margaret Thatcher’s father was a self-made shopkeeper.

Jim Calaghan (only man to hold all four great offices of state) was born in a council house in Portsmouth and joined the Merchant Navy when he was sixteen. (Not 19th Century I know but still pretty good going).

I have only spent about 2 weeks in America (1 week in LA/San Francisco and 1 week in South Beach FL, so hardly representative of the heartlands!) but here are a few of my thoughts.

I like America, and Americans. As others have said, they tend to be friendly, polite, and optimistic - they think the best of people and, it seems, like to see others do well. (We Brits, on the other hand, often tend to think the worst of people and mistrust successful folk.) The flip side of this is that I think Americans can be rather naive - they see “the American way of doing things” as the natural way, and probably the right way. There seems to be less understanding that the USA is just one of a couple of hundred countries on this planet, each with their own thoughts and way of doing stuff.

The chief thing that worries me is the power of religion and particularly religious loonies. I find it rather ironic that the Bush government is trying to spread democracy in the Middle East and get rid of religious fundamentalist rule, when there is a danger that religious fundamentalism will take over the USA.

I also find it odd the things that are considered “obscene”. Innocuous words such as “tits” are (I’m told) taboo on telly. The outcry over Janet Jackson’s not even bare nipple appearing on TV screens was truly remarkable to this outsider, especially when you consider the vast amount of violence shown on TV. The idea that a human nipple is somehow more shocking than graphic scenes of murder is frankly screwy.

But yes, I like America and I would love to see more of it!

A few more: Charles Dickens, left school & started work at 12 because his father was in debtor’s prison. James Cook, grew up in an poor farm-labourer family, discovered Australia.

Are non-Europeans/non-Americans allowed to answer?

Let’s pretend you already said yes.

My answer is SOME Americans, mostly those in the govt, take themselves wayyyyyyy to seriously.

YES America is numero uno SUPERpower in the world.

Does this mean George gets to decide who is the weakest link?
It seems so.

So if those bad bastards ruling countries not in the “Axis of Evil” continue to be bad bastards we will ignore them?
Yes, yes we will (It appears that Zimababwee is not interesting to anyone not from Zimbabwee…Oh ain’t the commonwealth a mighty machine).

Is it a good thing for the world?
Probably not.

To Americans: Why the flag adulation? If I want to see an NZ flag I need to cross the harbour bridge (why the fuck did the flag start flying there???) or go to Wellington, I presume there is a flag somewhere in the capital. There was recent debate (shit same debate different year) about changing our flag. The biggest reason was “it looks too much like Australias flag” (which it does) and many people confused the two. But we still manage to be Kiwis…even the doofuses who confused the flags.

Why is Americas flag so important?

Hey I live in the arse end of the world, who cares what I think.

This is a point that bears repeating. Someone posted “how many dishwashers become millionaires?” as it were a valid indictment of our society. I’d imagine very few do, but then not many potato farmers or shipping clerks do either. My great-grandfather was a potato farmer, my grandfather was a shipping clerk, and my father was an professional engineer.

“That kid from the projects” may not get rich (and then he might) but if he works to improve his condition, and provides a better life for his children than he had, his grandchildren will have a good shot.

I wish people would stop saying this. It will only result in less violence, not more nipple.

A symbol that raises respect and pride in what your country has accomplished? Is it that odd to believe that some people are not so cynical and jaded that they still believe on the whole their country has added more to the world than it has taken away, and are somewhat proud of that? I do not think that respect for one’s country and a pride in its accomplishments need to come at the expense of another nation.

Here’s another question. If one thinks it is somehow unseemly to show visible signs of pride in one’s country, is it possible that distaste at seeing others do it is akin to the distaste a bitter misanthrope has at seeing other people acting happy and light? That’s the feeling I often get when I see the “Why do you seem so proud/happy/zealous about your country” line of questioning. I understand that it is asked out of a supposed worry that people who are too proud of their nation are some type of nationalists who will try to take over the world, but sometimes it may just be pride in what has been accomplished. People who show such a distaste for that sentiment often strike me as having a bit of sour grapes.

The European perspective is that all countries have things to be proud of, and things to be shameful of. Jingoistic flag-waving (and taking great insult at any disrespect to the flag) is seen as a wilful ignoring of those unpleasant elements of what defines the nation.

Again, the younger-sibling metaphor seems appropriate. “Give them time, and they’ll learn” is the way I’d describe the European view of American flag-worship.

I don’t think as many folks think that way as it seems.

Anyway, probably something like the British soldiers in the Zulu war who when they were down to a single round wrapped themselves in the British flag and shot themselves. I don’t know why they valued the symbol of their country over their lives. I’d have dropped the flag so I could run faster.
OTOH, I hope that I would risk life and limb to save a Torah.

:slight_smile:

I don’t think I presented my point very well SlyFrog.

New Zealand does nationalistic out the arse and back again. Anyone who knows who the All Blacks are will tell you that. If they don’t they can certainly tell you about the masturbationary frenzy bought on by LOTR.

New Zealanders are proud Kiwis (almost all of us…I wouldn’t want to speak for the whole country, Billy Crystal did that :D) but I would not know where to even start looking for an NZ flag anywhere but an official place and those official places are few and far beween.

Why would anyone fly there own countries flag IN their own country?

Oh and by the way our grapes ain’t sour, try a Marlborough wine sometime :smiley:

Yesterday I said something about flags in the other thread on Americans, and I guess I’ll say it again here. Why are flags in America automatically considered jingoistic? I do not think that is the case. Flags are nice, they’re pretty, they’re cheery, they look good on a summer’s day, they make people feel happy. For a European example, GorillaMan, head up to Denmark sometime and see how they treat their flag. It’s everywhere. Flags go on birthday cakes, in festoons across the streets in summer, and are strung over Christmas trees. You can hardly buy a birthday card without a flag on it, and little flags on wooden poles can be bought anywhere to put in your bedroom–I have two. The Danes aren’t exactly famous for their jingoism, are they?

The flag only becomes a symbol of jingoism if we let it happen, by abandoning its use to those who want to use it that way. Personally I think we should have more flags. Calm Kiwi, if you send me a NZ flag, I’ll put it out on your national day.

gum :wink:
As to the flag waving…we, ourselves have very conflicting views and approaches to it. We “revere” it as a symbol of freedom and of sacrificies made etc.

Yet, we paint it onto motorcycles, we have visors plastered with it for golf and other outdoor activities; it is used for beach towels and table cloths…oh, not the actual flag per se, but the Red, White and Blue.

The actual depiction of the flag (13 stripes, 50 stars etc) IS rendered onto school folders, breast pockets of casual wear, patches to put on backpacks–the displays are endless. There is an expectation that one will wear RW&B on July 4th–clothing shops are full of summer shirts that have this theme. After 9/11, you couldn’t turn around for the Flag being everywhere–stores sold out–there were even RW&B Christmas tree decorations. Participating in all this is supposed to show your devotion to Country. IMO, displaying an American flag well within your own country’s borders strikes me as silly and juvenile–did your neighbors not know you were American? Sadly, I can understand the impulse of Americans of Middle Eastern descent feeling the need for such displays.

I also think these material goods using the flag are tacky as hell, but noone asked me that. To my mind, there is very little actual respect and/or patriotism present in this deluge of RW&B…it trivializes the actual symbol and dumbs down the sentiments attached to it…but as you see, I am in a definite minority!

Then again, the flag can serve as a powerful tool to express politics vis-a-vis art. There has been more than one artist bringing down controversy on their heads d/t the way they choose to depict the flag. Don’t remember details, but there was one at the Art Institute in Chicago a few years back where you walked on a flag painted on the floor. Horrors! cried those who were aghast at such anti-patriotism. But very little is known about proper flag etiquette–if more was known, I doubt we’d see the usage of the RW&B that we do.

[soapbox]

Oh, but I will add that if it came down to flag etiquetter vs free speech–free speech wins every time for me…

If you would take a silver fern instead it’s a deal :slight_smile: (it’s my prefered flag)

Only after 9/11 in America did I see more flags than I saw in Canada in 2000.

Maybe it’s because, barring recent immigrants, everybody in European countries is ONE ethnicity, ONE religion, ONE belief system? You don’t NEED a symbol to be English or French or Icelandic, you’re surrounded only by people just like yourselves, who all believe the same things, speak the same language, eat the same food, go to the same churches, have lived in the same villages for hundreds of years, etc. And the Southern hemisphere countries don’t seem to have triumphant immigration stories but shameful ones; why be proud of a country when your prostitute/thief ancestors were forced to come there? Many of our ancestors came into NY Harbor waving little American flags at the Statue–they couldn’t speak the language, they couldn’t read the signs, they couldn’t know the future–but they all could carry the little flags. And that’s not a feeling you want to give up.

I’m sure an Ocker will be along to poke you to death shortly but just a little info about NZ, NO ONE was forced to come here! NZ was all about zealous farmers.

NZ was not a prison historicaly, it could be argued that it is now. Apprently we are second in the western world for locking up people…after the US.

I’m sure an Ocker will be along to poke you to death shortly but just a little info about NZ, NO ONE was forced to come here! NZ was all about zealous farmers.

NZ was not a prison historicaly, it could be argued that it is now. Apprently we are second in the western world for locking up people…after the US.

9/11 had something to do with it. Afterwards, everybody brought out their flags to show that they supported America. Personally I found it nothing more than a fad. Almost every house in my neighborhood brought out their flags. Three years later, only one or two houses have their flags out now.

Little flag decals on cars and trucks are still around. Most have only one flag, but there are some trucks out there that have nothing but flags. We had one neighbor who had at least seven different flag stickers on his truck. Probably more. But the big thing now are the magnetic ribbons that say, “Support Our Troops” or whatever.