Europeans who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Hey, Bobojoe; regarding people coming from the States and not getting even par for their dollars; boo freakin’ hoo. You want your money to have American worth, stay in America. A lot of businesses here do give fair exchange values (especially if they’re in tourist-related industries), but I have no idea if businesses are required to, and if they don’t, guess you should have done some exchanging at the bank before you came here. It almost sounds to me like some Americans think Canada should be using the same money as them, rather than having our separate money system. (Oh yeah, and because of our funny-coloured monopoly money, we rarely have people mistaking fives for fifties. Think about it.)

As for Anti-American sentiments, yes, they are alive and well here. Maybe it’s because a lot of us believe that your average US citizens couldn’t even find Canada on a map, much less pay any attention to how we feel about them. And I, for one, really couldn’t care less either. It’s my country, and if our closest neighbour and biggest trading partner doesn’t seem to notice us much, no skin off my nose. As for the government giving their tacit approval of such bigoted attitudes in their citizens, well, I feel really badly about that. No, really, I do. I’m not sitting here chuckling about it at all.

Man- thanks, I will check that book out.

I would like to say though, that I was trying to say the US constituion is Not due to the US and the US alone- but that someone does a thing, and then someone else comes along and does it further, more, bigger, what have you.

You are absolutely right in your text, and I even think those Greeks had it right- compulsory service in the government.

But still, There is that size issue- I still think that makes it different. To my knowledge, US is the biggest experiment in democracy thus far in history, and also deals with, therefore, the largest diverse population yet. And a cup of water is different than 10 gallons, oops, litres,:wink: of water, if you have to cook spaghetti or drink the damn stuff in a certain amount of time.

My biggest point, I think, is that our size, although we are not really anything new, the size of us is novel, unique, when you couple that with the fact that we are a democracy, and a pretty good one, with all our failings- this does in fact amke for special, unique problems, situations and solutions- it’s just a mater of degree, but degree is a very large matter- one is comfortable at a certain level of heat/cold. Change that not very much, and one can go to anywhere from uncomfortable to dead.

So I still think we are a unique thing. I don’t mean to, again, imply that others are inferior to us, but I do mean to defend where I live. And in doing so, to point out our uniqueness as I see it, and our good parts.

I think to summarize, take the remarks I made about any change being only the most visible part of a long process, and I would say that that visible part is USA- but that yes, we did not come into being out of the ether. In fact, as you just very ably showed,and even more instances that you didn’t include, the whole damn world has contributed to what the USA is, and I think it’s a damn fine thing.

I just take issue with those who will run us down, and act like they have no sins themselves, of a similar nature. And I say that we have indeed, contributed much back- some not good, but much that is. And some of that, much of that, has either been novel, or some new groundbreaking version of an older thing.

I am, though, no super patriot or anything.

ok, enough of my hard-to-understand, loose, incomplete ramblings- Thank you for your intestinal fortitude at wading through same.

I will in the near future, read that book, and thank you for the pointer. I believe I will enjoy it, as you infer.

May I point you to http://historyhouse.com/ if you have bnot already discoverd it for yourself- I love that site. The archives seem to be harder to negotiate than they used to be though, which is a pity- the stuff they have really learned me some…heh…

bobo

:wink:

in what I had to say about my experiences, I don’t believe I said anything to really deserve your response.

And I must say it is markedly different in tone than your first one wanting to know what I was talking about- why the drastic change?

Perhaps I should have listened to my instincts and kept it out after all.

bobojoe -

  1. Do you expect U.S. businesses to accept currency from Canada? Germany? Japan? Anyone who travels outside the country should already know that they must convert their money before they purchase something.

  2. As someone who was warned about the snobbish French, the stuffy British, the horny Italians, and the grouchy Germans, I may have found them had I looked hard enough. All in all, they didn’t have traits any worse than can be found here in the U.S. (okay, maybe those Italians were a bit more horny than the rest of the world :p, but still you get my point I hope).

What I am tryng to show you is that if you expect that everyone is going to treat you badly, you’ll look for it in every situation. Your attitude may even make it happen.

  1. If you want to go into another country, abide by the rules, jump through the hoops, or stay home.

  2. I have crossed the Canadian border a couple of times and have never had a hassle and have found that every Canadian I came in contact while there were quite nice, eh? Again, look for the bad and you’ll find it, if not create it.

As far as the stylistic differences, I would like to add that I also found your posts too wordy and scattered. I like to think that I have pretty good reading comprehension but you lost me a few times.

I would like to see you stick around and contribute to the board, but I’m afraid that a lot of people will skip over if your point has to be deciphered.

True, but if you want others to read what you have spent time writing as well as consider your points, you may want to reconsider the advice.

ok, I’ll be taking some coherency lessons starting next week.

:wink:

Thank you.

right two points.
and the first one is a bit off topic.

i live 20 miles from belfast, i attend university in dublin and i have the religious views of the majority (protestant)and the political views of the minority (nationalist)in northern ireland. can you stop using us as an example?
we’re a crap one.
the irish and british governments did stupid things here, but in response to stupid situations. the IRA are not romantic freedom fighters, neither are the UVF defenders of protestantism and scots irish culture.

casdave, it’s not, and never has been THAT dangerous to live here. your pity and sympathy are misplaced folks.

you don’t go where you don’t have to be, you don’t say what you don’t have to say and you try and be intelligent on the streets…but that goes for new york, LA, paris, bangkok and just about any other place you want to mention.

second point.
cliche time.woohoo!

let him who is without sin cast the first stone
judge not lest ye be judged
politicians are corrupt.
good people don’t vote.
ethics are subjective, relative and open to debate.
history is written by the victors.

Actually, it was established quite early on in this thread that, in terms of the murder rate, Northern Ireland is quite safe when compared to the USA.

Thank you. Us polite people must stick together!

Yes, I do understand what you mean. The English teachers at my school refer to it as ‘transactional’ i.e. both parties understand it. But it’s more common in speech, where you can’t review (unlike this message board).
As Diane said, you should edit to make your posts more easily comprehensible.

I meant that once India gained independence (or once the UK stopped exploiting her), that our financial power diminished. The US economy does not rely on foreign investment in the same way.

You haven’t explained your original point about religious restrictions!

Bollywood is the nickname of the Indian film industry. It has a massive turnover, mainly in India, and is second in size only to the Hollywood. There is no sex or violence (really!) in any of their films. I’m not even sure they’re allowed to show a kiss.

So part of your definition of free-wheeling is to be wealthy?
I assumed it meant free thinking (rejecting dogma or authority).
I meant that Holland has a ‘relaxed’ attitude to drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, hair length in the army etc.
The US is far stricter on all these matters.

Yes, but you said the USA was a trail breaker. Now you say they improve other ideas. Which is it?

(sternly) do you know your history? The UK also had a thriving slave industry - but we were the first to abolish it.
In the 1800’s Britain ruled India, Canada, Australia, chunks of Africa etc. We went through the growing pains of ruling such a massive population (much larger than the US!).

You said trail breaking - also this stuff was just examples from one other country!

No, of course not. The point here is that we all have areas of knowledge and ignorance*. You say the US film industry is prudish. But you’ve never heard of Bollywood. That cite by me allows you to see if I’m right. If I just said “Nah! The US isn’t prudish!”, how would we settle the argument?

Well the problem with not citing is that we can’t tell if you do know anything about the subject. Certainly you won’t make much headway on the SDMB by saying “I know it, but can’t back it up with any evidence”.

Listen, this is a Pit thread, and we’re being polite and covering a lot of new ground.
Why don’t you start a thread elsewhere (GQ? IMHO?), and we can have a debate there.

*this is a polite way of saying that you were completely wrong!

Bobo, your freeking deluded.

Try crossing into the US with an old record and see what it gets you. Not only will you be denied entry, your car or perhaps your innocent friends car will be confiscated. You may also find yourself in federal detention awaiting deportation. In some cases this has occurred when the Canadian record has been expunged. I had one client who had a possession charge from the 60s and was arrested just changing flights in Florida. He spent a week in federal detention rather than the 10 hours in the airport his schedule anticipated. From a canadian’s perspective you are starting to look like a police state down there. To suggest crossing into Canada is somehow worse than crossing into the US is laughable.

I can only assume you were lied to about not receiving proper exchange on american money. Yes, some stupid gas jock may not have realized that there is an exchange but this is an aberation.

Ned, I don’t consider myself to be freeking deluded.

I guess you can assume anything you like.

I have worse to say about what I know about monetary practices up there, on the part of some, but will, having learned a lesson here, refrain from relating it.

I will say though- this was from several random people, people with relevant experience. I did not know any of them from Adam, and am wondering why they would all lie to me, saying the same thing? Perhaps it’s an urban legend, or maybe they all saw me coming and got together really quick and hashed out th efun they were going to have with the out-of-towner. I don’t know.

To say though, that it’s probably the work of a person who doesn’t know there is an exchnage rate, and the work of one person, to me, is the laughable statement.

I am sorry for your experiences, or those of your clients- I did note, though, that the offense you mentioned was posession- big deal down here for people trying to get in- I would hazard a guess that they were not really dealing with immigration at that point, but being held for DEA- largely assholes in many peoples’ books down here. Not to say there aren’t honorable DEA agents, but I haven’t heard of any.

Still, the police state remark- I concur, but also, from my limited experience with your country, feel the same about Canada, possibly even more so.

It’s ugly wherever it is. Like I said, I am no super patriot, but am still liking a whole lot about this country and will defend it, which brings me to:

glee- I dont’ think I am wrong so much as maybe incomplete, or assuming or inferential, my fault.

I have re-read this thread to see what exactly I have been saying, and it is this:

I take umbrage, like Sua, at people running down this country, when they have their own damn skeletons- pot calling the kettle black, etc.

I have said or intimated that the US has done much good, along with much bad- but every country has done bad, and I believe there is no other country who can match us in sheer volume of good done- simply because we are so wealthy and large. I am aware of the very poor per-capita figures out there for humanitarian aid regarding this country, but the point I was making is that that makes no net difference- we are just so damn big and moneyed we have still contributed more overall than anyone else.

Breaking trail or following up and improving broken trail- it makes no difference- if we contributed a thing, a technology, even if it was done by people who weren’t born here but chose to live here, well, we have, IMO, contributed the most there also. Either we did somethign new, or improved something someone else had done, or even just made it a commercial reality when they hadn’t- we’ve done more in more areas than others and yup, that counts the aliens who came here to make their work a reality- they came here because here is where it could happen. Adn this is what I meant by free-wheeling- taking things or coming up with things no one else had done. A sort of ‘Going where no man has gone before’ schtick. maybe that’s lame, I don’t know.

I am aware that Britain had lots of slavery and colonialism, but except for peasants, you have never had it in-country to the degree we did- you simply aren’t large enough- so yes, we did face some problems you didn’t- I am not aware of any civil wars that have divided your country over the issue of your slaves. I know you have had race riots, but am not aware of movements similar to our civil rights movements, at least not on the same scale. Again, uniqueness. Now, I am guessing I don’t have to re-illustrate the huge differences just a matter of size can mean?

I will anyway- you and I both could survie a little cut, even a fairly big one. But you make that cut big enough, we’re going to bleed to death. same type of injury, but a matter of degree means the difference between life and death.

When I spoke about religious suppressions along with a good standard of living, I was referring to the Arabic oil-producing countries, who are less tolerant of other erligions and practices than either yours or my countries. I then said, in effect, in several different ways, the primary difference between Britain and the US was one of size, and showed, I hope, that that is a more substantial difference than one might suppose- I was only showing that we have some uniquenesses from any other thing before or since, not that the differences with this country were the same as the differences with that country.

You are correct in the Bollywood thing- but I ddin’t say we were the most prudish nation on earth, only that we were more prudish than some.

You are also correct that that ‘stuff’ was only from one country- I hope I not only illustrated my point on that score, that country, but several others- I simply wont’ go down the line outlining the differences between the US and every other country- I just made a statement, and then provided some general examples. I won’t prove it to the nth degree. And I don’t say I am right and you are wrong- this is how I see it- doesn’t mean I am Mr. Fact Guy.

I think I am right,or pretty much so. That doesn’t conclusively prove that I am.

I know some history- I dont’ know all of it. I was aware of your large colonial holdings, yes. And yes, massive growing pains. But not in-country, or at least not to the extent we experienced it- I hope I showed that above. You yourself said it was outside the country- when you made mention fo the reliance on ‘foreign’ interests. That may not be the exact word you used, but it’s the gist of the statement you made. I am also aware of the tensions between different nationalities in your country- historically and even today. But again, you don’t have and have never had in-country slavery to the extent that we had, nor the numbers of displaced natives, now that I think of it- we have gone through and are still going through some things unique to those situations- again, we have some differences there. yup, other countries/societies have had those situations to deal with, but again, there are differences- more primitive times, less humanitarian solutions, the whole thing arising from war, whatever. Today, today, USA is dealing with things not generally dealt with, and certainly not in the modern milieu.

I apologize for the jumping around here, but at least I am trying to be more coherent, more concrete. So…

‘…Nah, the US isn’t prudish!, how would we settle the argument?’

But I ahven’t done that- for every statement I have made, I have provided some type of backup- maybe not hard cites, but the statements I have made have either been my own thoughts, which I don’t know how to provide cites for, or things that have or are in the news so predominantly that I would think they are fairly well seen, at least, if not agreed with. With the exception of my Canadian experiences-again, those are my experiences, how can I provide cites?

Hell- I know the stuff that wasn’t personal experience or my personal thoughts has been in the news enough that it has enjoyed lots of audience and is in no way a hidden or arcane thing. I speak generally, but you know, the japanese thing- I did provide examples of what I was talking about- I could do that for all the other stuff, barring the personal, but man, every other thing I spoke about was like the statements about the rising violence in Japan- it’s very easy for you to go see if I’m right or wrong- It’s front page stuff I spoke of, and my thoughts on it- I see no need to cite front page stuff- didn’t the stabbings and subway gassings make it to your newspapers? Can I not assume you read the news, or recieve it in some other way? Televsion, radio? The BBC? Even I listen to BBC news stories… This is why I wasn’t coming out the wazoo with cites- it wasn’t like the euthanasia thing discussed here- that is kind of a thign that begged cites- it isn’t or hasn’t recently been splashed all over the front pages of newspapers or been the lead story, at least lately. Or a matter of high school history.

As for whether or not I know anything about the subject- the simple fact that I took umbrage at being derided, nationally, by others who have their own skeletons, I think, would show that yes, I do know there are people in other countries who, to put it bluntly, hate Americans, and from what I have read, and even experienced in this very thread with a couple of posters, they don’t do my country the courtesy of differentiating- it’s, to paraphrase the emotions I seem to be getting from their posts, ‘You shitty Americans’- all lumped together- it’s a country hate, not an idividual one.

Ok, so I say we are pretty damn good, albiet with plenty of faults, and if one doesn’t think so, perhaps they should look at, if nothing else, who has been the deterrent to the USSR in the past, and now with China- and make no mistake- both of those countries, Russia in the past and China now and in the foreseeable future, would like/have liked, nothing better than to take control of any geographic loaction that they even thought would benefit them, in whatever way. I leave it to you to imagine what your life would be like in that circumstance. So yeah- a Canadian runs me down, my country down, I say well, how nice- why don’t you just keep living in the umbrella of comparative national safety we have created, and just keep telling us how shitty, ignorant, and freeking deluded we are.

Having said allthat, for me, this comes down to something like this:

Yeah, I may call my dog a fat pig, good for nothing but eating, farting, shitting and sleeping, but goddamm, don’t you dare!

Now, is this something you are innocent of yourself?

And I am of the opinion that Mandelstam is quite right- this back and forth ‘let he who is without sin…’ stuff is bullshit, solves nothing. It’s very hard not to get caught up in it though. I am as of now, no longer caught up in it, in this particualr matter.

Also, having re-read this thread, with more attention paid than the first time around, there are some very intrigueing topics that I would like to discuss, and so intend to take you up on your suggestions of starting a GD thread or two. But be warned- there are so many people here who are so much more informed than I, and seem to have wayyy more brain cells than I, it will mostly be for mine own edification…:wink:

To both you and Diane- I know this wasn’t so very well organized, but I did make an effort to make it more complete and more coherent.

Goodnight.

Ruadh

There certainly have been US politicians who have jumped onto the Ireland bandwagon, the one that springs to mind immediately is Edward Kennedy.

Whilst this issue was not directly used in election campaigns, politicians are known by their records of statements and interested goups remember who said what.

You do not have to say during a campaign a particular thing if on previous occasions you have made your position on that subject clear.

You will note that this is what I said about extra-judicial killings by Britain

Sorry if that gives you the impression that I am sceptical about the UK doing such things but when I meant unbiased sources I was referring to the propaganda that has been put out by various terror groups. I have come across Americnas(and Brits for that matter) who say all kinds of things recieved secondhand from either dubious or unprovable sources, I wanted to see if that’s what we had here.

In the context of this discussion Spua Sponte was commenting that though the US did kill its citizens, at least they were sent to trial first, however this came across to me poorly since it sounded holier than thou, the US does kill people without trial in extra-judicial killings, sometimes not even on US soil, look up the life story of Che Guevara.

I do not doubt at all that the UK has and maybe still does kill those it deems to be against its interests.

Bobojoe The US is not the largest democracy India is far and away the largest in terms of population with over 1 billion people and I would also say that democracy there is one hell of a lot more experimental there than in the US.

I always thought that US civil war started over issues other than slavery but that at the bottom of it was a dispute about economics, which in the South of the US meant by implication the use slaves, rather than directly.

The UK during colonial times had plenty of trouble when it seized land, and outlawed slave trading in territory under our control, it put the noses of various local dignitaries well out and they did not take it lying down.

As for race riots, hmmmm, living where I have done, I can tell you that some of them were caused when police went in to arrest powerful local drug dealers, these then escalated to ‘all police are pigs and they are opressing us’ type events.
Yes we have had them, most recently in Oldham where racist groups tried to intimidate local Asian communites to try and get one of their loathsome colleagues elected. They had to import racists from many parts of the UK to gain sufficient numbers to do that, so it shows how little in depth support they truly have.

As for growing pains, well I would think that the decades religious disputes finally culminating in our civil war would count as severe growing pains as it led directly to power being taken from the Monarch and given to Parliament which is the basis for your own system, it even led directly to the background of the early US since many emigrated in order to practice their religion freely, and this has had a fundamental effect on the US constitution.Without that civil war I think it would have taken a good deal longer to get to that sort of system.

Bobojoe, you’re entirely correct; my second post was different in tone from the first. When I saw the things that seemed so bad to you, it really made me laugh. I think the tone of my second post should have come across as incredulous disbelief at what some Americans seem to think Canadians should be doing to accomodate them in our own country, but it came across (I suspect) as snotty and mean instead. My apologies for that.
I think sometimes Americans do forget that Canada is a separate country, because a lot of things here are very much like they are in the United States, you don’t need a passport to pass back and forth, etc. But they are two different countries, and the laws, rules, and common practices may be different in each country. (Oh, by the way, about the money issue - whenever I’ve visited the U.S., the very thought of US businesses taking my Canadian money at all, for any exchange rate, is pretty laughable. I went to a Macdonald’s when I was leaving and was using up my American money, and the girl at the counter wouldn’t even take a Canadian dime to make up the total of the bill.)

I think the intelligent posters on this board can agree that BOTH the Europeans and the Americans are essentially a bunch of animals who have much to learn about civilization from the enlightened Canadian conspiracy. Unlike England, we have a Constitution; unlike the States, we stand up for principles apart from economic self-interest, and unlike the Netherlands, we really suck at soccer.

Worryingly, I do not think this is correct.
In Oldham East and Saddleworth, the BNP polled 11.2% of the vote on a turnout of 61%.

In Oldham West and Royton it was even worse, with the BNP taking 16.4% of the vote on turnout of 57.6% (that amounted to 6552 votes).

Re: The Kennedy’s
The extended family have taken to blaming their problems on Being Irish. bleh.

Irishgirl: Pleasure to see another Irish Poster!! Its true that it isn’t as dangerous as it is made out to be. But you have to remember that most people only see the bombs exploding on the news, and hear nothing else of N.I.

As for Gibraltar: IMHO, The SAS did not have any information to suggest that the Gibraltar 3 had a remote triggering Device. They went there, murdered, and made their excuses later.

Doesn’t that topic deserve it’s own thread.

IMHO, excuses were unnecessary as we (the British) were at war with the IRA and the other terrorist organisations, and in war there are casualties, innocent, guilty and civilian alike. Of course I’m not suggesting that the rules of war were observed, but they do tend to become a little blurred with terrorist conflicts. When politicians try to use soldiers as policemen, theses legal difficulties do arise.

Subtle point, but one I think is important (casdave, this responds to the point you made about extrajudicial killings in your last post). The British governments of the time explicitly asserted that the fight against the IRA was not a military situation. They asserted they were treating the IRA as a criminal organization, not an opposing military one. Hence, captured IRA members went to prison, not a POW camp.
The British did this to deny legitimacy to the IRA and their goals. Fine, but if you are going to act as though the situation is merely one for the prosecutorial system to handle, you have to obey the rules of the prosecutorial system.

Sua

Andy

The racists who campaigned in Oldham played one of the oldest tricks in the extremists book.

First you cause lots of tension and anxiety in your target group, provoke a reaction maybe by beating one or two up, throw the odd petrol bomb through the house window of a respected community leader, and then when there is a backlash from frightened minorities, inevitably aimed at the wrong people, you exploit it, maybe even start a riot if you can.
The majority population suddenly sees a problem with race so you throw some inflammetry leaflets into the mix, some lies and bingo you have a bunch of naive frightened majority population voting for the candidate who promises to ‘solve’ the problem of immigration.

The racists did it on the Isle of Dogs down London and got a councillor elected, this embarassed the local population who hadn’t turned out to vote in any great numbers, when the chance came around to vote again he was booted out.

Its a classic way to proceed, similar things have been done in recent times by the French and German racists.

10-15% of the vote cast in such cicumstances is not a lot really when you think that the actual turnout was around 50% of those eligable to vote but we can never allow ourselves to become complacent.

Spua
Whatever you feel about the SAS on Gibralter you did state that the US uses court proceedings before execution, this is not true, in some cases, the US has used extra-judicial killings, and your implication that the US behaves any better than the UK in that regard is weakened at the very least.
One of the reasons that the UK has never acknowledged that the NI troubles were a war is that the UN can then become involved in mediation and this might imply loss of sovereignty since the UN cannot become involved in a nations internal affairs without its consent, certainly the IRA would have used that as a point.