Euthanasia for non-terminally-ill patients

[Smapti]

@Czarcasm

So, if police find out that I intend to hang myself in the privacy of my own apartment, and I have no history of mental illness, they will not respond?

You do now, because you’ve stated your intent to hang yourself.

But again, I’m not sure what that has to do with euthanasia for non-terminally-ill patients.

[Czarcasm]

@Smapti

You do now, because you’ve stated your intent to hang yourself.

But again, I’m not sure what that has to do with euthanasia for non-terminally-ill patients.

I’m trying to figure out what the hell you meant when you said that suicide was legal. How can something be legal if the mere declaration that you intend to do it brings down law enforcement on your ass?

[Smapti]

@Czarcasm

I’m trying to figure out what the hell you meant when you said that suicide was legal. How can something be legal if the mere declaration that you intend to do it brings down law enforcement on your ass?

If I fall into a river and can’t make it ashore on my own, police and firemen will likely show up to get me out. Does that mean falling in a river is illegal?

[Czarcasm]

@Smapti

You do now, because you’ve stated your intent to hang yourself.

But again, I’m not sure what that has to do with euthanasia for non-terminally-ill patients.

Are you a mental health professional qualified to make that diagnosis? Do the police consult mental health professionals qualified to make that diagnosis before declaring total strangers to be “mentally ill”?

[Czarcasm]

@Smapti

If I fall into a river and can’t make it ashore on my own, police and firemen will likely show up to get me out. Does that mean falling in a river is illegal?

Saying that suicide is legal means that it is legal for people to kill themselves without interference from the law. Your interpretation of “legal” is asinine.

[Smapti]

@Czarcasm

Saying that suicide is legal means that it is legal for people to kill themselves without interference from the law.

Saying that suicide is legal means that there is no law against suicide to which one can be subjected to judicial punishment for violating.

Show me the laws against suicide if you assert otherwise.

[Czarcasm]

@Smapti

Saying that suicide is legal means that there is no law against suicide to which one can be subjected to judicial punishment for violating.

Show me the laws against suicide if you assert otherwise.

From Wiki:

In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten “common law crime,” as stated in Blackstone’s Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992)). As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person’s family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been “of unsound mind.” That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.

[Smapti]

@Czarcasm

From Wiki:

So we agree that suicide is not a criminal offense anywhere in the United States.

Good.

[Czarcasm]

When one side resorts to saying

@Smapti

So we agree…

when the other side has not only not said that they agree, but has made it clear that they do not agree, then honest debate has been tossed out the window.

[Smapti]

So find someone who’s been convicted and imprisoned for suicide, and start a thread on that injustice instead of hijacking this one.

[usedtobe]

The discussion re. suicide is pretty much parallels the debate over abortion.

Should we allow it?

How about this case?

Well, maybe…

This one?
HELL NO, you Commie creep!

It’s been 40 years and the fascists who want to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her uterus are still going.

Pretty much the same people who opposed abortion “Make her have a baby she will loathe!” now say “Make him live in abject and hopeless misery”.

Since when do other people get to tell me when I may or may not leave?

Suicide is an absolute, inalienable right.

[Sd79]

@Smapti

If you let someone kill himself because “everything possible has been done”, and a miracle breakthrough comes around the pike a year later, you can’t undo the suicide.

So make 'em suffer just in case? I can’t see that if the person has decided they are ok with death now, let 'em go. People should be allowed to make that choice. Just like now, they can choose to not try a treatment that might save their life for a few years…and instead they go on hospice.

[AHunter3]

Anyone should be allowed to off themselves without having to justify their decision.

I think it’s reasonable to put in safeguards that would limit temporary moods causing unfortunate permanent consequences: require people to file an intent some reasonable time period before it can be legally acted upon, that kind of thing. But it’s not the state’s business (or that of anyone else) to tell someone “You haven’t proved sufficiently awful circumstances to justify killing yourself”. Frankly, “It’s beneath my dignity to share the planet with the likes of you” seems like a perfectly legitimate reason.

[Sd79]

@wolfpup

The parts that I bolded seem to be in contradiction. Whether someone should be able to ask for euthanasia if their condition isn’t terminal is a difficult and certainly a debatable point, but as you point out yourself, mental illness can be untreatable (and horrible) without being terminal.

I would point out, though, that one of the important themes running through Being Mortal that I mentioned in #23 is the idea that medical science is strongly – almost absolutely – conditioned to preserving life by “every possible means”, to use your words. And Gawande believes we go much too far with this, especially with respect to subjecting the elderly to complex, painful, risky procedures that have limited benefits or perhaps none at all, and that may kill them, as opposed to focusing on their comfort and quality of remaining life. As a surgeon he cites many instances of such folly, sometimes at the instigation of doctors, and sometimes misguided patients themselves. Patients have every right, of course, but often they get very bad advice, and there is a real lack of adequate end-of-life counseling.

This is not the same as euthanasia but it’s a closely related observation that embodies the same idea, that medical science is excessively focused on “saving life” at any cost without adequately assessing quality of life and the true best interests of the patient.

If a person picks ‘do everything’ and they suffer, they picked it. And if they change their mind, and say so, doing less and just comfort can happen. Many of them don’t want to know how bad it can get - that’s part of the human condition. (I have more than one relative in their 80’s who refuse to imagine tubes feeding them and a machine breathing for them-like teens taking risks cuz ‘it wont happen to me’.)

Just make it easier to change to comfort care-if patient want to or if they are too far gone to decide, let the family be able to say after they learn how bad, ‘do everything’ can be.

It’s a slow change but there are drs in the ICU who encourage palliative care in the intensive care unit.

[Smapti]

@Sd79

So make 'em suffer just in case? I can’t see that if the person has decided they are ok with death now, let 'em go. People should be allowed to make that choice.

I disagree. No matter how dire your current situation is, there is always a possibility that things will get better. Suicide destroys that possibility. Suicide is surrender. It’s cowardice. It’s throwing away the possibility of improvement because you’re afraid of temporary suffering.

And when society is encouraging or aiding people to commit suicide, it means that society has given up on those people and other people in their position as well, and that collectively we are cheapening the value of human life by saying that life isn’t worth living if it’s not perfectly comfortable. Hell, we’ve already had one person advocate in this thread that people ought to be euthanized if caring for them is too expensive. Is it any wonder that some people are afraid of “death panels” in the future?

[AHunter3]

@Smapti

No matter how dire your current situation is, there is always a possibility that things will get better. Suicide destroys that possibility. Suicide is surrender. It’s cowardice. It’s throwing away the possibility of improvement because you’re afraid of temporary suffering.

That entitles you to have, and express, your opinion of my decision. You haven’t gotten to the point where you explain how it entitles you to prevent me from making it.

And when society is encouraging or aiding people to commit suicide, it means that society has given up on those people and other people in their position as well

No it doesn’t. Any more than allowing people to decide not to get converted to apostolic Christianity and get saved means giving up on them. It means acknowledging that no one appointed you God and that it isn’t your decision to make.

and that collectively we are cheapening the value of human life by saying that life isn’t worth living if it’s not perfectly comfortable.

I read it more as “if we let people check out if and when they decide life isn’t worth living, people will abandon life in droves! No! We have to force people to live their life, whether they like it or not!”. You turn life into a prison sentence when you make it involuntary, and that cheapens it

Hell, we’ve already had one person advocate in this thread that people ought to be euthanized if caring for them is too expensive. Is it any wonder that some people are afraid of “death panels” in the future?

Whoa, whoa, hold on.

You aren’t seriously unable to distinguish between MY right to end my life if I see fit to do so, and someone ELSE’S right to knock me off if THEY are so inclined, are you?

If you’re asserting that it will be difficult to ascertain that I’m really opting for it of my own free will, that’s a reasonable and valid point, but you haven’t made it so much as you’ve sort of insinuated it in passing. You don’t get to just assume it. Want to develop that as an assertion and put forth your evidence for why you think that’s a major risk? Compare it to other decisions that we allow people to make for themselves but don’t want others making for them?

[Smapti]

@AHunter3

You aren’t seriously unable to distinguish between MY right to end my life if I see fit to do so, and someone ELSE’S right to knock me off if THEY are so inclined, are you?

You have exactly as much right to kill you as anyone else does.

[wolfpup]

@Sd79

If a person picks ‘do everything’ and they suffer, they picked it. And if they change their mind, and say so, doing less and just comfort can happen. Many of them don’t want to know how bad it can get - that’s part of the human condition. (I have more than one relative in their 80’s who refuse to imagine tubes feeding them and a machine breathing for them-like teens taking risks cuz ‘it wont happen to me’.)

Just make it easier to change to comfort care-if patient want to or if they are too far gone to decide, let the family be able to say after they learn how bad, ‘do everything’ can be.

It’s a slow change but there are drs in the ICU who encourage palliative care in the intensive care unit.

First of all, my apologies. When you said “*I do think anyone with a disease that is not terminal should have the option to ask for help dying. I also think every possible means to treat and help that person find a way to make life worth living again should be done first. After that is done, … *” etc. for some reason I read it as “I don’t think…”. So there was no contradiction in your statements, and I agree with everything you said there and in this reply, too.

All I would add is that (a) patients may not know enough to request palliative care and refuse “heroic measures” that are likely to be futile and counterproductive, and (b) there is no “changing of mind” if they opt for unwise surgery and come out of it completely destroyed and their life turned into a living hell. Yet the default medical practice is to do everything that technology can offer without making value judgments about the wisdom thereof and the patient’s quality of life.

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just pointing out that this is a significant issue in medical ethics. And end-of-life counseling, including such issues as DNR and quality of life judgments, is a very important area of medical practice especially in geriatrics, yet geriatrics is an understaffed specialty with far too little of such counseling. We need to be able to make this a valued part of medical practice without right-wing lunatics ranting about “death panels”.

[Kobal2]

@Smapti

You have exactly as much right to kill you as anyone else does.

Right ! And cutters should be prosecuted for assault and battery ! Drunks, smokers ? Murder trial, poisoning with intent ! Where do these people get off thinking they have a right to harm themselves ?!

[Sd79]

@Smapti

I disagree. No matter how dire your current situation is, there is always a possibility that things will get better. Suicide destroys that possibility. Suicide is surrender. It’s cowardice. It’s throwing away the possibility of improvement because you’re afraid of temporary suffering.

And when society is encouraging or aiding people to commit suicide, it means that society has given up on those people and other people in their position as well, and that collectively we are cheapening the value of human life by saying that life isn’t worth living if it’s not perfectly comfortable. Hell, we’ve already had one person advocate in this thread that people ought to be euthanized if caring for them is too expensive. Is it any wonder that some people are afraid of “death panels” in the future?

temporary suffering is how long till it’s not temporary for you? The next 50 yrs? For me, that is too long. I’m not alone in thinking that’s not temp enough and I’d rather leave my body.

Human life has always been cheap for the peasants. Just look at wars. Look at gangs even in USA inner cities.

And in spite of all that we still have billions of us.

As long as we can afford to care for the expensive people, I’m for it. If it means people still healthy and working do not have enough for their needs (not wants), then it’s time to cull the herd and it’s best to start with those who are costing too much to care for.

I do question if we could - if families and people would- be willing to do a lot of the care for those they want to save from a death cull…it’s a lot of work for some but why are they stuck in institutions?