Evangelicals, Once Again: Christians and Muslims don't worship the same god

from what i understand, Christians worship Jesus(He is God!)
so obviously, Muslims do not worship Jesus, i.e. God.

Some people believe communion wine is God, some don’t. Does that mean they worship different Gods? Where do you draw the line between believing in the same God, but getting some details wrong, and believing in a different God?

who are these people who worship wine?

Well, Jesus is one of their most important prophets, and they honor him a great deal (and his mother–plenty of Muslim girls named Maryam or Miriam), they just don’t think he was the begotten son of God.

Sheesh. I learned about the great monothiestic religions in grade school–a public school no less–in the 70’s, and there was no confusion about this (all the same God). We also learned the tenets of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Hinduism. Very useful.

And Bush has at least distinguished himself in this respect: he has been careful to reach out of American Muslims. He even hosted the first Ramadan meal in the White House last year. Some of his followers are gorram idiots, but you can’t blame this one on him.

Transubstantiation: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transubstantiation

I can’t quite remember which church follows it, I think Catholics, but I may be mistaken.

oh

Just out of interest, is there one which worships beer :wink:

IIRC there was a sect somewhere that celebrated communion with whiskey during the prohibition. I don’t know about beer - most people I know worship beer regardless of denomination.

See, this is why I worship a moss-encloaked granite statue of Cthulhu I found underneath my shed. I’m comforted by the knowledge that he is going to kick everyone’s ass when he wakes up.

I’d still go for worshipping beer. You don’t care if my deity can beat up your deity if you worship enough.

Don’t forget, however, that Kabbalistic Judaic lore (which may or may not be relatively recent in development itself - that’s another debate) has its own version of a triune God. In the Kabbalistic case, the three heads are God the Source (the prime mover or the all-in-one), God the Father, and God the Mother. The energy of creation pours down from the Godhead (Kether), and the fundamentally sexual interaction of God the Father (Chokhmah) and God the Mother (Binah) creates all the rest of the universe.

You can see why Kaballah was considered heresy of the lowest sort for a time.

“God has sex with himself to create the universe? Hang them all!”

Yep, www.beerchurch.com

I’d go so far as to say that no two Christians, Jews or Muslims worship the same god, because he only reveals himself indirectly. Leaves a lot of room for people to project their own ideas of what God should be like onto the “real” God they worship. One might rashly say that the history of these three religions has been a competition among differing groups’ visions of the god they all assume has objective attributes. It’s much different than, for instance, when two people talk about having been in Dodger Stadium. They can be pretty sure they’re both talking about the same stadium. Not so simple with God.

Be well, my faithful follower, for when The Stars Are Right, your true worship will have you greatly rewarded. You will be eaten last, for one.

Also, Muslim’s * think * they are worshiping the God of Abraham, but really, I was the the one who spoke to Mohammed - that whole fasting on Ramadan thing, or getting them to make a rock in Saudi Arabia sacred was all a pratical joke, to see how gullible you humans were. :smiley:

I prefer the Church of Diego Maradona myself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2396503.stm

Heh. Not likely (though they’d love to, I’m sure), the SBC lost a bit of its credibility here when they came out against the state lottery (since, you know, the alternative was to raise taxes, and if there’s anything folks hate more than sin, it’s higher taxes).

Nashvegas is slowly turning into “Sin City”. (Thankfully!) We’ve even got a statue which features exposed naughty bits (note to pervs and mods, you can’t see anything juicy in the photo :frowning: ), that’s really chapped a lot of the yokels, but there’s not a damned thing they can do about it.:smiley:

No, not a contradiction, a distinction. Christianity is the fulfillment of the promises of the OT, promises having been made through that period, inadequately understood even by Jews themselves. Remember, all the early followers, as well as Jesus, were Jews. They were not ‘outsiders’ or ‘unbelievers’ with a revisionist theological construct. What we have, in essence, is an argument among Jews as to identity of the Messiah. Those Jews able to distinguish the signs of the arrival of the Messiah are to this day known as Christians. Does the NT comment on this fact? Extensively! It is clearly explained that the unbelief of the Jews, as a nation, opens the way to a new covenant between God and the rest of the world, the Gentiles. A concept also clearly foretold in the OT. The NT makes clear that the promises of the OT, fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, have completed God’s plan for the path of salvation of all men who seek Him.

Now, fast forward 600 years and we find an Arab named Muhammed having visions in a cave from the angel Gabriel.
These visions are to be the actual words of God, dictated to Muhammed, and the correction of errors in both the OT and NT. Muhammed is the final prophet. The Koran develops in written form after his death.

Okay, so here we are. Now, for all those people who simply want easy answers to simple questions, please, feel free to define God as anything and everything you want.

No, wait, I can’t even go for that. Words have meanings, and when communicating with other humans words matter. Misunderstandings arise even when two people speaking together have a close relationship and common language background. So, when you use the word God and I use the word God, it would be most helpful if we meant the same thing! So, if I tell you that God is triune in nature, that Jesus is the Son of God, that He lived a sinless life, was crucified for redemption of our sin, was resurrected and ascended to the right hand of God, perhaps, just perhaps, mind you, it would make sense only if your definition corresponds to mine.

So, how do we know if we’re talking about the same Creator? Simple, we compare attributes and the statements by and about Him. So, let’s do it.
Christianity believes: Does Islam?
One God, Triune in nature No
Man is born with a sinful nature No
Atonement is required for sin No
Salvation is through Jesus Christ No
Jesus is the Son of God No
Jesus was crucified, and died No
Jesus was resurrected No
Jesus is the only path to salvation No

Now, this ought to be real simple, folks. Call it what you will, but Christianity and Islam do NOT believe in the same God. This is not a case of two blind men each touching the opposite end of an elephant and both thus being right in their identification. This is a case of two faiths claiming to worship God, and some then declaring that distinctions don’t matter, differences don’t matter - the details for pete’s sake! - don’t matter, as if that wasn’t precisely the point to begin with! If you can, willy nilly, change the entire definition of the words in my post, then my words mean anything and nothing. Yet, that is what some do when the conversation comes around to discussion of God. Let’s at least be honest enough to acknowledge that the dispute between Christianity and Islam is in almost every area of theological concern. Who is God, what is He, what is His will for man, how do we know Him, who are His representatives to us, and so on.

I’m right. :smiley: But you knew I’d say that, didn’t you? Look, I have the utmost respect for anyone who cares to have a thoughtful discussion of the whole issue. It’s only by exploring the issues involved that we are able to open minds. It is not my intent here to disparage Jews or Muslims. My sole intent is to clarify that the core of Judaism, Islam and Christianity is not, ultimately, reconciliable. Each faith has clear tenets which disqualify acceptance of the other; they cannot all be right. That leaves only two possibilities: all are wrong, or one is right. Dismissing the first premise, I defend the second.

NaSultaine: Are you aware that your checklist tosses out a few denominations of Christianity? BTW, you left out a third possibility: your view is biased. You might want to consider that possibility.

Vanilla, I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church does, officially, believe in transubstantiation, that is, the wine served at Communion/the Eucharist/the Lord’s Table/your denomination’s term becomes the literal Blood of Christ, just as the bread served becomes the Body of Christ. Some Episcopalians believe this also. As for me, while I don’t believe it becomes literal, DNA-containing blood (among other things, it tastes different!), I do believe that the bread and wine served do, in some fashion, become the Body and Blood of Christ, somewhat more than mere wheat and grape juice.

Getting back to the OP, I think I’ll re-use an analogy. I’d say the issue of whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God is a bit like the issue of my citizenship. You see, I’m a naturalized U.S. citizen. When I swore my oath of citizenship, I was required to renounce all allegiances to other countries and the British citizenship I was born with. In the eyes of the United States’ government, I am a citizen of the United States only. On the other hand, as I understand things, in the eyes of the British government, I remain a British citizen until the monarch tells me otherwise, and believe me, I don’t move in the same circles as her! Am I a British citizen? In the eyes of the British government, yes. In the eyes of the American government, no. In my own eyes, depends on who’s asking and why they want to know. Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? Depends on who’s asking and why they want to know.

CJ

NaSultaine, iin Judaism (and indeed Islam) the idea of the triune is blashphemy of the highest sort, the Christian concept of the Messiah is also far removed from the Jewish so far removed from the Jewish concept of Messiah that the simlairities between the two cocnepts are superfical and the difference substantial.

Also your checklist on the differences between Islam and Christianity is inaccurate as Muslims belive in the crucifixation and the resurrection, also i’m not sure what Islam’s postion on atonement and original sin are.