Even if the Bush is Right About Iran and Nuclear Weapons

The US launching a pre-emptive strike is is the last thing we should do. Now, I’m still hashing all of this out in my mind, so forgive me if it’s a bit rough in spots, but this has been rumbling about in my head since a friend recently advocated us blowing things up in Iran to keep them from getting nukes.

Now, I’m going to follow the Administration line on all of this, I’m not going pull any cites out which say that the government was wrong/lying about anything in regards to Iraq, 9/11, or Afghanistan. I am simply going to take them at their word and argue because of what they’ve said and done (as described by them), that we’d be doing something incredibly foolish by launching a pre-emptive strike against Iran to prevent them from getting nukes and then bombing Israel/US/whomever they happened to dislike.

According to our government, the plan is for Iran to get a nuke and then blow the crap out of Israel and/or the US (via either a missile or smuggled weapon). Let’s look at how this would have to work:[ul]
[li]Israel is a nation of drooling slackjaws incapable of defending itself.[/li][li]The Iranians would have to do something no other nation in history has ever done: Build a nuclear weapon and use it, without ever testing the design first.[/ul][/li]Let me go on record as saying that I don’t think that the Israelis are a nation of drooling slackjaws, so I don’t see how this could be a possibility at all. After all, they’ve had no problem bombing the crap out of things in other countries which they saw as a threat to themselves, so it seems to me that if they felt that the Iranians were close to building a nuke, they’d have no problem in handling the matter themselves. If someone cares to take this tangent and run with it, feel free to, because I can’t go any farther with it.

With the second possibility, we’re claiming that the Iranians are technologically savvy enough to do what we couldn’t do during WW II, and that, while no other nation on Earth has ever used nukes in war, all the nuclear powers on Earth have tested at least one (with the sole exception of North Korea who’s nuke test may, in fact, be the only “fizzle” on record) weapon to verify that they do, indeed, work. (The Israeli’s are thought to have tested theirs with the help of South Africa back in the 1980s.) This is a risky idea, to say the least. I mean, you’re planning on terrifying the world and instead of there being this earth shattering kaboom, all you get is the clanking sound of your dud warhead bouncing around on the ground. Gotta figure it does a number on the ol’ flagpole, if you know what I mean.

But, let’s say that the plan, indeed, is to develop a nuke and have it’s first test be in operational use. So, in order for it to be a surprise, this means that the same US intelligence sources which are able to tell us that this is what the plan is, are unable to tell us in advance that the Iranians are getting ready to lauch a nuke within a couple of days (or so) in order that we might be able to publicly humiliate them, either ala the Kennedy Administration at the UN during the Cuban Missile Crisis, or launch an airstrike on the launch site which obiliterates it militarily, but leaves enough radioactive traces on site that a neutral party could come in and say, “Yup. There was definately a nuke being readied here.” Mind you, the analysis techniques out there are good enough that a neutral party could conclusively prove that the radioactive traces didn’t come from the US, and thus it’s not a “plant” on our part to justify the bombing. I can’t really buy this scenerio, either, but it seems to be the more plausible of the two, so we’ll go with that.

Okay, then, let’s look at what happened with Iraq. The US government (and remember for the purpose of this thread I am not doubting them at their word) stated that the Iraqis were working on WMDs and were very close to using them, which is why we had to invade. This is the same Iraq which had some kind of connection with 9/11, but the exact details of which have to remain classified for reasons of national security. We launched a massive invasion of Iraq and some years later, no WMDs have been found. So, what happened? Well, either the intelligence services got it wrong (In which case we have to ask how do we know they’re getting it right, now?) or the WMDs were smuggled out of Iraq for parts unknown (possibly Syria). A third possibility, and one that I think we all would consider unlikely is that they did find WMDs, but have had to keep it quiet for one reason or another.

Before I tackle the first possibility, I’m going to dispense with the second one. What steps has the US government taken to ensure that Iran doesn’t become a repeat of Iraq, with WMDs being smuggled out of the country (And why haven’t those smuggled WMDs been used in the years since? Did Osama max out his Mastercard or something?) once we attack? Shouldn’t that be our first priority? If it is, I haven’t heard anything about it. We can’t just assume that a bombing raid will do it, after all, we put a helluvalot of effort into stopping the Nazis from getting their hands on heavy water

My understanding is that at least some of those missions were of the “suicide” type. The guys knew going into them that there wasn’t much hope of them being able to pull it off, much less coming back alive. Where are the accounts of our suicide missions in Iraq? Seems like every time we screw up a mission/covert op, it becomes front page news all over the world. Surely we launched some in our efforts to get the WMDs in Iraq before they were smuggled out, right? Rumsfeld did say at one point we knew where the WMDs were, so if we knew where they were, we would have been incredibly incompetent to not send the various special forces into the areas to get them. If we were so imcompetent, then what evidence do we have that the administration’s taken pains to correct this?

As to the third possibility, that there were weapons found, but we’ve had to conceal it, couldn’t we have gotten some of our allies who opposed the war, like say, the French, to look at the WMDs and come out publicly saying, “Yup. They found them. We can’t give you any more details than that, but we’ve seen them, and we know that they’re real.”? Okay, so it wouldn’t convince the muslim world and people who hate the US just on general principles, but, it’d make those nations which are our allies more inclined to help us out than they’re presently doing. After all, it wouldn’t be just another mess we’ve gotten ourselves into, they would know that there was, indeed, a good reason for us going in there. Again, what evidence is the administration willing to offer to our allies to bolster our claims? I’m not talking about evidence in public, but in private, since you can’t expect governments to around publicly waving documents which would give away classified information.

Back the first possibility and that the intel services screwed up and there were no WMDs in Iraq to begin with. Okay, what efforts has the Administration made to correct this? And how are they prepared to demonstrate them in a manner which will prove to most of those opposed to the Administration that they have, indeed, fixed the problems? Again, I’m not asking for them to publicly show photos of a camel with a nuclear weapon on it’s back, but they could show such photos (or similar evidence) to the Dems in Congress, the French, Greeks, Germans, Italians, Swedes, and the Russians. All of whom are allied with us when it comes to opposing terror (and the use of nuclear weapons) and at least some of them were opposed to us going into Iraq. One would think that the government would have enough PR-savvy people to realise that if you’ve got evidence which is convincing to the leaders of countries that dislike us, the bulk of the population will be convinced, even if they never see the evidence themselves.

Adding all this stuff up, just makes me think that if Bush is right, and we’ve got to bomb the Iranians, then he’s the wrong man for the job. He’ll screw it up, either by letting the weapons falling into the wrong hands, or mishandling the arguments for the bombing that any good done by it will be more than cancelled out by the global ill-will we’ve generated.

Now, I know that there are some who’ll argue that while the above might be true, we can’t wait, since if we do, millions of people will die when the nuke is set off. To those that would say such a thing, I’d submit that were it to happen, it would be the best thing to happen, given the various possibilities I’ve laid out in this thread. Iran, and nutjob extremists would be seen in the worst possible light, with the entire planet going, “Oh crap! We’ll be lucky if the Yanks don’t nuke all of us!” No one is going to offer much in the way of vigorous opposition to us blowing the crap out of Iran. Heck, I’d be willing to be that at least a few countries offered to do it for us as a way to see that justice was delivered and not have us just deciding to trash the whole neighborhood while we’re at it.

Most of that post is pretty hard to follow, but the basic idea is right.

Even if Iran is building a bomb, bombing/invading them would be an idiotic thing to do.

Even if Iran plans to USE a bomb (an extremely long stretch of the imagination), bombing/invading them would be an idiotic thing to do.

Even if Iran plans to use a bomb, AND it’s likely that the bomb/method of delivery would actually work (an almost impossible stretch of the imagination), bombing/invading them would be an idiotic thing to do.

The basic message here is that invading Iran would lead to worse consequences than seeing a nuke go off in an American port, or an Israeli city. It’s a hard thing to accept, but it’s just flat out true.

Especially since it’s hard to see how a “surgical strike” on Iran’s nuclear facilities would solve the problem instead of just delaying it. I’ve seen estimates that Iran is currently still about 10–15 years away from being able to produce a nuclear weapon. Even if we bombed their facilities, why should we assume that that would prevent them from re-starting a nuke program? Would it do anything more than just put off the possibility of an Iranian nuke for about 10–20 more years? Is that really worth launching an aggressive attack that will kill many people and might escalate into another serious war?

So, uh, are you volunteering to be in the city where this happens? Just wondering is all. Would you be happy to find out afterwards that the President knew this was going to happen and just let it?
Personally, I don’t think it is the President’s job to make the rest of the world happy with his decisions. If the French, et al, don’t like what he is doing they can pound sand for all he should care. But if he seriously believed that some foreign nation was going to set off a nuclear bomb in an American city then why would, or should, he wait for the rest of the world to come on side with him given that there will always be some, that even if shown direct evidence of vaporized bodies, who won’t believe it? Or even if they do believe it would just wave it away as unimportant. After all if the great Satan, the US, can have the bomb then why not Iran? They, after all, are equal in this morally relativistic world we live in, aren’t they?

It is amazing to me that anyone would see nutjob extremists in any positive light, but I’d be surprised if those who did so would think any worse of them for setting off a nuclear bomb. Now I agree that they might not be too vocal in their support
of the terrorists afterwards, but I doubt it would change how they basically feel.

Uh, did I say anything about “just letting it happen”? No.

Well, if the President’s decisions happen to involve invading other countries (and getting permission from various nations to use bases/airspace, etc. under their jurisdiction) and destabilizing large parts of the world, or disrupting the global economy (all of which we’ve done), then I think that it’d be a good idea for the President to have as many global leaders on his side as he could possibly get.

And what, pray tell, would be your response if the French told us to go pound sand when we asked them to turn over a suspected terrorist within their borders? We don’t think that it’s okay for our President to dictate to us, what makes it okay for him to dictate to the rest of the world?

Show me where I said that he should allow an American city to be vaporized? Where’s the harm in making sure all our ducks are in a row before we go blowing things up? After all, aren’t we supposed to be better than the terrorists who simply care that there’s a lot of people in the target area? A nuke, on a launch pad that get’s blown up in an air strike will leave plenty of traces for people to determine that it was, in fact, a nuke. As for folks not believing the evidence right before their eyes, they’ll always be in the minority. Always.

Oh wow, here you almost reach the truth. Almost. One of the strong aruments in the US’s favor has been that even though we’ve had the power to wipe the entire planet out at the push of a button, the fact that we’ve not done so, proves we’re not completely evil. If, on the other hand, we go around making war willy nilly, we lose some of that cred. The more people on our side, the easier it is for us to fight terrorism and the less expensive it is for us to do so. Awfully cheap if somebody hands over a bad guy to us, compared to us invading another country to get him.

And you’d be wrong. The US got lots of support in the wake of 9/11, with even states who love calling us “The Great Satan” willingly giving us information. Why? Because they knew that Osama had gone too far. Had Bush properly capitalized on all of that, we could have gotten global support in removing Saddam.

I should note that I’ve said nothing about us “just letting Iran get the bomb,” my argument has been, and is, that this Administration is too inept to ensure that the weapons are, in fact, destroyed, if they are even capable of properly determining that such weapons do exist in Iranian hands. One would hope that the next Administration, regardless of party, will do a much better job.

You said,

Which means to me that getting consensus from other parties is more important that protecting American citizens. I don’t agree. That doesn’t mean that I’m against getting consensus, it means that I think the President should act in the best interests of the citizens. Keeping them alive would be the highest priority.

I never said the US President had a monopoly on telling people to pound sand. I assume that the reason a country would not turn over a suspected terrorist to an ally would be because a) their laws don’t allow it and/or b) it is not in their best interest for doing so. They are allowed to act in their best interest. I’d expect them to.

In your scenario how is he dictating to the rest of the world if he stops a country from using a bomb against his citizens?

I’d hope so, too. But his first priority is protecting citizens, not gathering consensus from foreign governments. So, if a threat is imminent, act, then sort the ducks.

Willing to give the benefit of the doubt to people who say they want to kill you doesn’t make you better. It just makes you stupid, imho.

Of course.

Wrong. They helped because they were scared shitless that the US might take a closer look at them in addition to Afghanistan.

Agreed. If he had focused on Afghanistan instead of Iraq it would have been far better for all concerned.

Uh, no. Quite simply, it’s possible to do both. In fact, by building concensious you actually protect American lives. I’m sure I don’t have to go into detail as to why this is so.

I didn’t say that we should place anything over keeping Americans alive.

Ah, but a little help in one area can smooth over problems in another area, don’t you agree? If we tend to piss people off in general, then how can we expect them to help us when it is not necessarily in their interest to do so (but would cause no harm to them if they did)?

Well, first of all, he’s got to establish that there is a threat to his citizens, don’t you agree? Otherwise, if he just declares that said nation is a threat to the US and promptly bombs it, what’s to stop him from doing that to other nations?

But how likely is that Iran would be able to prep for an attack on the US totally undetected?

And where did I say we should do that?

And how does this contradict what I said?

And do you not see that because of his shocking cock up that he can’t be trusted handle Iran correctly? Even if they are planning on nuking us.

Well, the US did build and use a nuclear weapon without testing the design first. Getting the critical mass needed to get a uranium bomb to work is comparatively simple.

Uh, have you never heard of Trinity? And before that there were all kinds of tests involving the various components used in the bombs. True, the design in Little Boy wasn’t tested, but the concept had been proven by the Trinity Test and we knew that even if Little Boy failed in use we had a design which would work.

I live maybe 100 miles away from the Trinity site. Look, a uranium bomb is different from a plutonium implosion bomb. You said that Iran would be the first country to use a nuclear weapon without testing it. I say that the US was the first country to use a nuclear weapon without testing it in Little Boy and that we didn’t need to prove the concept for that weapon anyway.

And that’s why I don’t get the latest administration claim that Iran cannot even have the knowledge to build a bomb. It’s not like the basics haven’t been common knowledge for 60 years.

Well, I’ll plead guity to forgetting about Little Boy when I wrote the OP, but even if that was all we had dropped, we still tested all the various components which went into the bomb. I don’t know, but I’d be willing to bet that if the Trinity test had been a fizzle, we’d have gone back and rechecked Little Boy to make sure it would work.

And, IIRC, the Bush Adminstration inadvertantly helped in that when they published captured Iraqi documents on the web, which it was revealed after the translations had begun that they did contain information about WMDs, so they quickly had to pull them down.

I don’t think anyone is actually claiming this.

But you seem to be missing another part of the equation: once the ball gets rolling on proliferation, it gets hard to stop. So Iran gets the bomb in 2015 or something. Is Iraq just going to sit by and say, “Whoop-dee-doo, our neighbor has the bomb. We’re not threatened at all!” Will Saudi Arabia say, “Those crazy Shiites have the bomb. We Sunnis should rest well at night!” And if all these countries are getting bombs, hey, Egypt is an important country, why shouldn’t they have one too?

I am not saying that Iran is the beginning of a nuclear arms race among second tier powers. I am saying that India and Pakistan getting the bomb has encouraged others to seek it – reference the AQ Khan proliferation network. If Iran gets the bomb, there’s that much more likelihood that the technology will spread.

The technology has long since spread, remember, this is 1940’s high-tech. What stops countries from building a bomb is the expense, and the time, investment. The road to the A-bomb, either plutonium or enriched uranium, is long and arduous, and paved with money. But if a bumfuck backwater like Pakistan can do it, just about any nation above Upper Volta can do it.

Trying to contain nuclear technology is like trying to contain mathematics.

Sheesh. If NK can build a nuke, anyone can. I mean, where does NK rank in the per capita GDP list? Perhaps there are some countries in Africa that rank lower, but Iran is an oil rich country of 75M people. They will get nukes one day, and there is really nothing we can do to stop them. Better to figure out how to learn to live with a nuclear armed Iran. Frankly, I suspect that once a country gets nukes, it quickly learns how useless they really are as weapons. Oh, they work great as bargaining chips, but any country that uses one will have the entire world crashing down on them toot sweet. That goes for overt or covert use.

I’m no expert, but does it really matter if Iran gets nukes?

I mean, they aren’t crazy enough to actually uses them, are they? Sure, they blab about erasing Israel from the face of the Earth, but if they actually did so, surely they’d suffer a similar fate, no? And they know that, right?

I would prefer they didn’t get them, but the fact is, that Iran will get nukes (assuming it wants them).

I don’t think they would. I’m much more concerned about Pakistan than I am about Iran, and they already have nukes. If we look at things objectively in the M.E., Iran is much more of a potential ally to the US than most Sunni Arab countries. As intolerant as Iran is, it is years ahead of countries like Saudi Arabia in terms of basic human rights.

Instead of trying to isolate Iran, we should accept that they are a sovereign country, and start talking to them about our mutual interest. We have much in common, if we can get past the Bush rhetoric about the so-called axis of evil. To the extent that we are “at war” with radical, fundamentalist, militant Islam, Iran is not part of that conflict.

Yeah, I spoke poorly. Instead of saying, “If Iran gets the bomb, there’s that much more likelihood that the technology will spread,” I should have said, “If Iran gets the bomb, there’s that much more likelihood that the will to possess nuclear weapons will spread.”

You rightly point out that acquiring nuclear weapons is mostly a matter of time and money. But let’s get real: North Korea and Pakistan have apparently proliferated know-how for weapons and missiles that substantially reduce the time and money it takes to become a nuclear power. The calculation of whether its worth pursuing the bomb becomes very different if it would take 20 years or 10.

And seriously, the more the bomb spreads, the faster it is going to spread. I think the more common the bomb is, the more difficult it will be to contain its use. Sure, we can say Tehran will be flattened if Iran nukes Tel Aviv, but who will stand up to deter Iran from nuking, say, Kabul or Najaf in ten years time? Nobody raised a finger when Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran. Who is supposed to deter a nuclear Egypt from taking out Tripoli? Are the current group of nuclear powers supposed to provide a nuclear umbrella for the whole world?

I think the proliferation of nuclear weapons carries with it a much, much greater risk that events which, IMHO, come very close to genocide will be possible with a push of a button — or the mistaken push of a button. And I’m not even bringing up the arguable increased risk of nuclear terrorism.

I get the feeling that I’m nearly alone in this thread in thinking that we really ought to be stopping nuclear proliferation. I read many of these comments to mean, “Eh, we can’t really stop 'em. So if we try and fail, them’s the breaks, and we’ll have to find a way to live with it.” Am I off base with that interpretation?

Good luck getting international cooperation with that attitude. “We need to know where this Al Qaeda money is coming from !” “Shove it, American pig. You wanted to go it alone, well go it alone.”

I’m sure they do. You don’t get to be an old mullah by doing things that get you killed; actually believing that suicidal rhetoric is for the fools who strap bombs to themselves. Not for the people who give orders to said fools.

Man, I hate doing this sincere shtick. Much more comfortable with zingers and snark. All right, roll out the goddam pulpit! Shit.

Peace is the answer. It is, and has been these many years, the only answer, war became obsolete at Nagasaki, if not Trinity. We don’t have an option, we live together, or we die. Period. Full stop.

It will be very, very difficult. A world-wide consensus amongst like minded people for toleration and negotiation must become the norm, and the powerful must be trusted to bow before such arbitration. If only the powerless are obliged to obey the law, there is no law.

Peace is the answer, there is no other. It will require the leadership of the noblest of nations, to be the brightest moment in human history. I have a nominee. And if not us, who? And if not now, when? Peace.

There is no world wide consensus and it is unlikely in the current world environment. Tolerance and negotiation can only happen between those who are tolerant and willing to negotiate. Countries that are totalitarian and deny human rights should not be given the same voice at the table as those who are democratic and promote human rights.
Ideally there should be a organization of states, call it the United Democratic Nations, that only members who meet certain criteria can join. Those who allow people a voice in their government, those who support human rights for all their citizens, and those that have shown a history of doing so are permitted to be members. These members would all be equal. There would be no need for the equivalent of the Security Council. They would have free trade between them. Those not members would be allowed to trade but at a penalty. Maybe there would be different levels of trade for nations more advanced than others. But at least there would be some incentive for countries to clean up their act and become full members. Now there isn’t.