Even if torture produced intel, how many people would you have to waterboard to get usable intel?

[Little_Nemo]

@Hail_Ants

Waterboarding is not torture. Torture is the direct infliction of physical pain. Waterboarding is exactly what it was described as: An enhanced interrogation technique.

How do you imagine this works? That somehow pouring water down a person’s throat acts like truth serum?

The whole idea of waterboarding is that it causes pain. That’s how it works. You hurt a person and then you threaten to hurt them some more unless they talk. It is torture, plain and simple.

The only difference between waterboarding and other forms of torture is waterboarding leaves less physical evidence on the body of the victim.

[iiandyiiii]

@Hail_Ants

As long as the person remains tipped head-down there is no chance any significant amount of water will go into the lungs and potentially drown. Yes it is psychological ‘torture’, but so is what a girlfriend can do to you.

It’s also physical torture. Drowning and near-drowning cause severe pain, especially in the lungs. I nearly drowned once, and my lungs hurt severely with every breath for a day or two, and still hurt after two weeks. Further, I had nightmares about drowning for a year or more afterwards. It was the most frightening and painful experience of my life – more so than any from my time in the Navy, or even in Honduras when I was attacked at night by three bottle-wielding youths.

Because releasing hard evidence to its effectiveness is a double-edged sword. On one hand it provides justification, but on the other it seriously tips our hand to the enemy in terms of what we know and how we knew it.

That means you can always claim effectiveness with zero evidence. In short, not good enough for the Dope, or for a rational person to assess its effectiveness.

The people and societies & cultures we were/are dealing with here are so below us in terms of basic human rights that worrying about our ‘image’ in their eyes is beyond laughable. Notice how much Israel gives a shit about its image to the arab world (other than maintaining one of strength and unwavering commitment to their existence).

You think I’m so worried about what the terrorists think about us? Wrong – I’m so worried about what the rest of the world thinks about us. As is Israel, which needs support from us (and others) to minimize their future risk. That’s what this torture does – it makes America look weak and morally corrupt to the rest of the world… the strong and good don’t torture, only the weak and bad torture.

Israel cares a great deal about its image in Europe, the US, and elsewhere. We do too. Torture has greatly damaged us in this way and others. Torture has made us weaker and increased the risk to us in the future.

[puddleglum]

@Martin_Hyde

Torture as intelligence gathering doesn’t really work precisely because it’s been known for thousands of years that people break under torture. It’s why as far back as we’ve had armies, only the top generals knew the general plans of battle, where the army planned to move and etc.

It’s why terrorist networks, guerrilla forces and what have you have for ages operated in a “distributed” model where just capturing one group doesn’t give you access to much/any information. The members of that group receive orders to take certain actions a relatively short window prior to the act, and they have no knowledge of who their boss’s boss is or what other groups are doing.

Take the 9/11 attacks, based on what we know most of the hijackers if you had captured them they simply lacked information to give us any idea as to the entire plot. The 13 who were brought in very late, to solely act as “muscle” to overpower the flight crews and keep the passengers in line literally knew almost nothing. Six of the hijackers did have some planning responsibilities but even they individually wouldn’t have been able to give up the whole plot.

Now, if any of them had been captured the whole attack would likely have been called off, or we’d know enough to stop it (i.e. that something was being planned soon for airliners), but as far as usable intelligence outside the parameters of the plot? Even with all 19 captured you don’t really have much more intelligence on Al-Qaeda than you did the day before.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on the other hand, is one of only a few people we’ve ever captured that did have a lot of operational intelligence on how Al-Qaeda operates. He was so high up that even if a lot of his specific intelligence about ongoing activities was outdated almost immediately he still had a lot of valuable information about Al-Qaeda’s structure, how its planning/operations work and etc. KSM of course was tortured extensively, probably the most of anyone we’ve ever tortured. How much of that was necessary to get him to tell us what we know is questionable, KSM was a pretty corrupt guy (the Taliban didn’t even like him being in Afghanistan because he was basically a hedonist womanizer and they found him offensive), once captured KSM probably could have been easily manipulated into telling everything of worth without any waterboarding.

I think it’s worth considering even groups with extremely evil intentions don’t really use torture for intelligence gathering. They may use it for various reasons; like because they just want to do it, or to demoralize other prisoners, but for intelligence gathering it’s not a very useful tool. In many countries where the Nazis had trouble rooting out all the Jews by far their most common technique for finding more was a simple bounty system. Some Nazi occupied countries there were very limited food rations, and the Nazis would make it known if you could finger a Jewish person posing as a gentile, or take them to a hidden Jewish family, you got extra rations, or were allowed to skip to the front of the bread line that day. Not tons of gold or promises of an immensely better life, just a promise of some food that day, and people turned on each other. Not right away, but a population pushed to the brink of starvation the Nazis correctly realized that while there would be some people who would rather starve than turn in their friends and neighbors there would also always be some who would choose to turn them in for some extra food.

Its a shame that the CIA did not know about you before his interrogations. Since you could have gotten the information out of him easily while it took them months and years to get the information.
Almost all interrogations work by promising the person something they want. In criminal interrogations they promise a reward of a lenient prison sentence or even no prison sentence. If the person is in prison already they can offer rewards such as privileges in prison or an early release. In the example you used they used food as the reward. In torture the reward is the cessation of the torture.
All rewards are susceptible to false information. Very few people would rather spend more time in jail or watch their family starve than give false information. That is why when a criminal turns in his cohorts the police investigate the story to see if it holds up and if it does not they do not the leniency offer is revoked.
The way this is done in a terrorist interrogation is you first ask him about information you already know to be true. This confuses the terrorist about what you know and don’t know. So he thinks you know all the information he knows and there is no point in giving false information.
Having a cell structure does not defeat the gathering of information from captured informants it just slows it down. One of the most successful examples of this was the battle of Algiers. The french were trying to put down a rebellion in Algiers which in which the rebels had a cell structure and had control of most of the city. The french arrested and tortured some rebels caught during fighting and tortured them until the learned the whole cell. They then arrested and tortured the leader of the cell until they knew his contact. They kept on repeating this until they had destroyed the rebels in Algiers.

[DrDeth]

Torture does not work- at least to get info. See, first the guy clams up. Then he lies. Then he tells the truth, then he starts making crap up. There’s no way of telling what stage he’s in, and some people slip back and forth.

Yes, you could verify each version. But let’s say it’s a bomb- do you have that much time? Will the false intel set the bomb off?

And then there’s the very real chance that the guy either doesnt know, or the torture has driven the useful info from his head.

The example here is a safe combination.

Pretty much all torture does is satisfy sadistic people.

[The_Second_Stone]

Hey! Puddleglum is back! Woot!

I’ve got all sorts of books and experience on interrogation. I do it as part of my job as a lawyer. In my extensive experience, you interrogate a subject by treating them respectfully, establishing rapport, letting them know that you actually check out everything they say or are going to say and ask nicely. Listen to them like they are the most important person in the world. It works. I’ve had hostile witnesses who at the end of the day were stunned at what they had told me and have said so.

[puddleglum]

@DrDeth

Torture does not work- at least to get info. See, first the guy clams up. Then he lies. Then he tells the truth, then he starts making crap up. There’s no way of telling what stage he’s in, and some people slip back and forth.

Yes, you could verify each version. But let’s say it’s a bomb- do you have that much time? Will the false intel set the bomb off?

And then there’s the very real chance that the guy either doesnt know, or the torture has driven the useful info from his head.

The example here is a safe combination.

Pretty much all torture does is satisfy sadistic people.

There is no interrogation technique that is not vulnerable to the same critique. Personally I would rather be waterboarded than spend a month in prison, yet prosecutors offer years off prison sentences and still find ways to get the truth. They have effectively destroyed the Mafia in this country relying on the word of informants who they have turned using those type of rewards.

[beagledave]

@Hail_Ants

As long as the person remains tipped head-down there is no chance any significant amount of water will go into the lungs and potentially drown. Yes it is psychological ‘torture’, but so is what a girlfriend can do to you.

I’ve never heard a serious argument that equates waterboarding and “what a girlfriend can do to you”

You sound like what Mancow used to think.

Used to.

[DrDeth]

@puddleglum

There is no interrogation technique that is not vulnerable to the same critique. Personally I would rather be waterboarded than spend a month in prison, yet prosecutors offer years off prison sentences and still find ways to get the truth. They have effectively destroyed the Mafia in this country relying on the word of informants who they have turned using those type of rewards.

Bullshit. While you are lying there in your prison bunk, you have plenty of time to think your choices over rationally. You can give a *rational *answer.

[Hail_Ants]

@iiandyiiii

It’s also physical torture. Drowning and near-drowning cause severe pain, especially in the lungs. I nearly drowned once, and my lungs hurt severely with every breath for a day or two, and still hurt after two weeks. Further, I had nightmares about drowning for a year or more afterwards. It was the most frightening and painful experience of my life – more so than any from my time in the Navy, or even in Honduras when I was attacked at night by three bottle-wielding youths.

When your brain knows you’re not really floundering in an actual body of water it retains that knowledge.

@iiandyiiii

That means you can always claim effectiveness with zero evidence. In short, not good enough for the Dope, or for a rational person to assess its effectiveness.

There has been no repeat of 9/11 on American soil in 14 years. That speaks volumes.

@iiandyiiii

You think I’m so worried about what the terrorists think about us? Wrong – I’m so worried about what the rest of the world thinks about us. As is Israel, which needs support from us (and others) to minimize their future risk. That’s what this torture does – it makes America look weak and morally corrupt to the rest of the world… the strong and good don’t torture, only the weak and bad torture.

Bullshit. The Western powers all know that when push comes to shove in national defense you’ll inevitably have to take extreme measures. They all know it because they’ve all done it. If you’re not an American then the 9/11 attacks just don’t seem that extreme to you. Besides, we are the world’s only superpower. We can afford to act unilaterally when necessary.

@iiandyiiii

Israel cares a great deal about its image in Europe, the US, and elsewhere. We do too. Torture has greatly damaged us in this way and others. Torture has made us weaker and increased the risk to us in the future.

They don’t care so much that they’re not going to do whatever it takes to insure their nation state survives, regardless of any PR nonsense.

The biggest laugh I get from all this is that while we argue over whether waterboarding is torture, real torture (burning, beating, electric shock etc.) is being inflicted in every corrupt muslim middle eastern police barracks on a daily basis just as its been since the middle ages. I’m sure they’re laughing even harder at us pussy westerners…