Ever know of a horseplayer whose bookies...

…stopped taking his bets, because he won so frequently?

We’ve all heard of card counters who regularly beat the casinos, usually, at black jack, and they end with the counter getting thrown out.

So, I wonder about people who bet on horses. Are some so canny they win so regularly the bookies refuse to take their bets?

Perhaps they are then forced to go to the track. If this indeed happens, do racetracks banish too-frequent winners like casinos do card counters?

Not interested in fixed races. Just bettors who pick winners honestly, but so often they get shut off.

Also, I’m not so gullible to buy anyone’s system that’s “guaranteed” to make me rich. I should imagine that people who win on horses are content to keep their “system” under their hats.

In fact, my “gambling” is restricted to online Hold 'Em for play money. Which can hardly be called gambling.

I can’t give you a factual answer to this question. But a fictional treatment of the issue–involving a computer program, from the days when computer programs were run on taps–and a significant amount of intrigue can be found in a Dick Francis novel Twice Shy.

Horse Race betting is rarely betting against the house, it usually uses something called pari-mutel (sp)? betting that its basically the winning payouts are a division of the bet pool -a percentage for the house. So in that regard horse racing is a pure cash biz for a casino/bookie unless s/he is running her own show and somehow messed up the balance.

Because I am not a huge gambler but I like to play the ponies a bit at the fair I use a very simple system that is great for preservation of capital. Just bet on the favorite to show. I am holding a winning ticket probably 80%-90% of the time and usually win enough to pay for some munchies and my fair admission. I also used to stick to only making one $2 bet per race.

I could see where in theory someone could make a decent living doing this with $1,000+ bets. Sure they might only pay $100-$200 extra back for the win but doing it could easily net a few hundred a week even with the occasional loss.

IIRC most working professional gamblers play games where they are not fighting the house (poker and sports) but I know there are more gambling saavy dopers than I who can cover the details of that.

Parimutuel betting.

drachillix basically hit it. You don’t ban winners because they aren’t hurting you in the least. In fact, since you get the vig from each bet placed, their winning is making you money. Don’t ban them - give them season passes!

The short answer is that a consistently successful punter will have his account closed, no question.

Whereas parimutuel betting is a facility offered in the UK, the vast majority of racehorse betting takes place on a bookmaker to punter basis. This comment ignores the advent of betting exchanges, whereby the service provider takes a small percentage of the punter’s profit and frequent big winners are not penalised.

Bookmakers like the occasional big winner from a small outlay. It is good publicity for them. It tells others that they too can win a shedload of cash for a modest investment, which of course they can if they have the luck of the Devil but probably won’t because they don’t.

The worst punter a bookmaker can have is one who bets big and infrequently and has a good overall winning record with that bookmaker. This punter is a drain on the bookmaker’s finances. The bookmaker will consider that his punter ‘knows something’ and they prefer ignorant clients whose knowledge of horseracing is as close to zero as possible. The clever punter will soon have his account closed.

Circumventing a ban like this can be problematic. The clever punter can go to the track but, at most meetings, the betting market is so weak that he risks having a large bet refused or substantially reduced. If a bookmaker is showing 33/1 about Good Value in a particular race, a typical exchange would go like this:

Punter: £500 win and place Good Value @ 33/1.
Bookmaker: You can have £50 win and place @ 20/1.

Even if he spreads his bet with several bookmakers using others to help him, the news will travel around the betting ring and the price of the horse will shrink.

(At meetings where the market is strong (Royal Ascot, the Cheltenham Festival, the York August meeting, the Goodwood July meeting and several others) the punter might get his bet on.)

Our clever punter can also open an account with another bookmaker and, if he is wise, he will do this through a third party. Nevertheless if he continues to win that account will be closed also.

Many moons ago (I don’t bet now) I had about 10 bets with the Tote off course in the space of about 18 months. When the last of these 10 duly obliged it put me about £8,000 ahead with this firm over those 18 months. They closed my account by letter, which I received the following day. I knew, or knew of, several other punters who had accounts closed for similar reasons.

Wonderful!

I thought the question would generate one reply, two at the most. But I got all these and all were illuminating. Chez Guevara, you explained things especially well, and I’m richer for it.

Maybe 40 years ago my wife and I went from Springfield Mass. to Saratoga, NY to see the horse races (God knows why. We weren’t at all interested.). We knew zip about horse racing, and I have to admit, this was the most boring trip we ever took. I didn’t even know what to say to the man in the cage when I stood in line to make a bet. Had to ask the guy in front of me. And, of course, my horse is still on the back stretch.

But if I had drachillix’s system, we might have made enough bets to have paid for the gas. Remember how cheap it used to be? :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Thanks to all!

If you bet at the track, you will never ever ever get banned for winning.

They take like 20% from the pool and don’t give a fuck who wins.

Remember though, that under a parimutuel system, every bet made on a horse, without similar bets being made on other horses, will shorten the odds on that horse. Your $2 show bet has a negligible effect on the show odds; your $1000 show bet might have a huge effect. IOW, your $2.40 in winnings may not translate proportionately to $1200 because your large wager being dropped into the show pool may have skewed the show odds on your horse downward.

Still, in most cases, it is true that the track generally doesn’t care who wins what.* By the time the race has been run and the winners are paid, the track and government have already skimmed their percentage off the top of the pool formed by the wagers placed through the tote windows.

  • Note that the track does care if a negative pool occurs, because then it actually loses money paying winners. For example, if a huge amount of money goes on one horse, shortening the odds such that a win results in winners being paid, say, 3 cents on the dollar, but the law says that all wins must pay at least 5 cents on the dollar (which is the case in my location), then the track will lose a couple of cents on every winning ticket it pays out. This is why, every time I see a payout of $2.10, I wonder if a negative pool was formed. Not that I really care, of course–unless my horse lost, in which case, I don’t even get $2.10.

How do stateside bookies handle a negative pool? Would they pay out $2.10? Or do they just break your legs and keep your money for the trouble you helped to cause? :smiley:

I don’t believe bookies are legal in the United States (with some exceptions, such as the state of Nevada). They are certainly illegal throughout Canada. So, with most bookmakers in North America operating illegally anyway, it’s a safe bet (pun fully intended) that they pay no attention to the “five cents on the dollar” law that applies to parimutuel pools.

But in short, a parimutuel tote usually balances because it has to–the cost of paying winning wagers is determined by the ratio of wagers on the winning horse to the wagers on the losing horses. This can be determined mathematically, as the players put wagers through the windows. Nobody, except the players, is affecting, much less dictating, the odds. Final odds are determined by what the math says at the time the race begins, not what they were at the time the player made his or her wager. If the math necessitates a negative pool, then there is a negative pool that nobody can do anything about.

A bookmaker, on the other hand, usually balances because he* wants to. It’s a small distinction, but an important one. The bookie has a somewhat more difficult job, since unlike a parimutuel, he doesn’t compute the odds he is offering so much as he sets them. As such, he must be careful to set odds in such a way as to “balance his book” so that he pays winners with the losers’ money, and keeps a profit besides. (A good bookie does a lot of math as he works anyway, but he doesn’t leave everything in the hands of math as a parimutuel does.) But by setting odds himself and changing them as appropriate, rather than letting math do the job automatically, the careful bookmaker should be able to avoid any negative pools.

Now, if the bookie isn’t careful with setting and changing odds as he deems appropriate, he can and will lose money. Most bookmakers are very good at what they do, and they rarely lose money this way. But (and finally, here is the answer to your question) I have found that when they do, they are also very good about keeping to their obligation to pay you what you won, regardless of how it affects their bottom line. If you bought a horse from a bookie at 10-1, and he subsequently shortened that horse to 1-20 (that is, five cents on the dollar), he would pay you at 10-1 if your horse won. He might grumble about it, but he would make good on his obligation to you.

However, it is also important to remember that the bookie expects the same of you–that if you place a wager with him, then you are expected to make good on your obligation to pay him his money if you lose. Because if you don’t, then you may well be visited by a couple of guys who will strongly urge you to fulfil your obligation to the bookie. Maybe not over a $2 wager paying $2.10, but since many wagers placed with bookies are significantly larger, the real question may be moot.

  • Bookmakers can also be female, but the masculine pronouns have been used in this post since most bookies are male.