I just wrote a really long post explaining my reasoning, but I think it goes into a bit more detail than I am comfortable with. I don’t want who I try to be to clash to greatly with who I am, and discussing this sort of thing does that.
I am pretty sure I am a Sociopath/Psycopath.
But I try hard, and all is well. I’m lucky that I have a loving family to keep me focused.
I’ve known two.
My mom was married to one (not my dad). He was abusive, paranoid, a skilled liar and incredibly charming. He could get just about anyone to sympathize with him. My mom finally left him when he calmly told her that he was going to kill her and bury her in the basement.
The other was a former partner in my business (he came on before I did). I don’t know about him for certain, but I definitely got the creepy feeling about him. He’s charming and loves to brag about himself. I had a hard time believing half of his stories. And after he left we found out he’d been helping himself to our checking account, badmouthing the company and just letting bills pile up instead of paying them.
If your family loves you–you’re not one. Psychopaths are in no way lovable to people who know them well. Nor do they love in kind.
I just wrote a memorable and wise post. One that you would want to print out. A great post.
Then the server went down. Grumble.
At least one. I once helped a friend move back in Texas. He was moving because of the bad feelings he had about his roommate, whom he’d met by answering an ad posted on a board looking for a roommate. He wanted me there because he was afraid of what the roommate might do if he saw my friend moving out and no one was there. It was the first time I’d ever met the guy, name of Lee, and he seemed okay about my friend moving out.
Years later, Lee was arrested and convicted of murdering the woman he had married since that time, dismembering her and burying the body in a garden in the backyard.
I’m sure I’ve run across others over the yaers. That’s the one who stands out in my mind.
I knew this guy personally, via one of his common-law wife’s kids. I’m not skewing events to make myself seem better when I say I hated him from the moment I met him. He lied continuously about his intelligence and wisdom, and bragged alot about his acumen in many areas despite being a dirtbag, felt that the laws of society, which he openly derided, did not apply to him, and did not care a damn about the welfare of the children in his household or his so-called wife. It was very creepy to realize what he was talking about when he was discussing all the women who “wanted” him. The many ways in which he was a vile person are too numerous to list here, but he sincerely held the belief that he was a superior being, that he had everyone fooled, and that he existed outside the law.
It was so infuriating when he jumped bail and was on the lam, because I’m sure that just reinforced his belief that he WAS godlike and brilliant. What was also horrible was how many people who knew him defended him and believed every word he said, despite a mountain of evidence to support the charges. He was, in his way, charming, but in a way that I found repellent. The last time I saw him, we had some very unpleasant words, and I was kind of :eek: when he was charged with this and later was on the loose.
I’m also positive that this guy is a career criminal and will never be reformed. When he was supposed to be hiding out, he could not stop himself from committing more crimes, both big and small, which led to his apprehension. It’s too much a part of who he is. Is this a psychopath? Sociopath? Anti-social personality disorder? I don’t know. But he’s a very scary person who I hope I never see again.
One year in college, I lived in a fairly seedy neighborhood. There were all kinds of crazy folks wandering around at all hours. One was this biker named Spike (his real name). He knocked on the door one night and asked my roommate if he could borrow a screw driver. The next morning we saw evidence that someone tried to start our neighbor’s motorcycle with a screw driver.
My roommate was pissed off. He wanted to confront Spike to get his screw driver back. I convinced him to back off and that it wasn’t worth it. A week later Spike was arrested for murder. No, the weapon wasn’t a screw driver.
Now wait a minute, are you saying that if you fantasize thusly, you’re a psychopath?
In that case, I am a psychopath. And the details were pretty vivid, too.
You know, I wonder how far this sort of reasoning could carry a real psychopath/sociopath. A real psychopath may not actually feel empathy towards others, or a desire to do nice things for people, but can recognize the benefits of acting as if he does, at least on a limited basis. Could a psychopath, similarly, reason themselves into acting ethically consistently? That is, would they be capable of reasoning, “If I’m only nice to people when it’s clearly in my own self-interest, and cruel/indifferent to those who can’t advance my interests, then those who know me for a while will realize I’m not a good person, and tell others. This will harm my interests. Therefore, I should feign kindness and concern for people consistently, even though I don’t feel the emotions that ordinarily trigger these actions.” The Showtime series “Dexter” portrays a fictional psychopath sort of like that (except that he also chops people up). But is a thought process like this realistic, or is it too far-fetched for a real psychopath to get behind?
Also, a philosophical question - say that a psychopath like the one I’ve just described did exist. No real feelings of empathy or compassion, but out of his own self-interest, he consistently treats those around him with the appearance of decency and respect. Is this, in fact, a good person? Or just a fraud doing a very good job of pretending to be a good person?
I’ve had something similar happen to me, too - walking home with pizza, and some jackass steps in front of me and yells. I jump, he laughs and walks on past. I doubt this rises to the level of outright psychopathy, but it’s certainly asinine.
I met Gunnar Hansen, who played Leatherface in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. But he’s definitely not a real psychopath - he was more like Santa Claus in person.
I crossed paths (at the motorcyle shop where two of his victims worked) with This guy once, maybe 3-4 months before he snapped. He was speaking in the sort of opinionated way that made me avoid any conversation with him…that and he was into a goth thing, wearing makeup and black nail polish.
I also saw him on his motorcycle a number of times without knowing who he was. It had a bumpersticker that said “Arm the Homeless!” that always made me chuckle.
This case actually hit me pretty hard.
Though I didn’t know thier names, two of the victims were the kids that worked in the back of a motorcycle shop where I spent a lot of money. One of them had mounted and balanced a couple of tires for me.
Here is a thread I started just after the event.
Turns out the judge I mention it that thread (I bought a motorcycle from him) is the judge that has presided at the hearings. Neither of us knew that would happen when I spoke to him about the case, the judge was working only civil matters at that time.
Hyde is/was a documented schizophrenic. IANAPsychologist, but I think that is different from a psychopath. His meds had been changed, and he made some clear attempts to get help in the days before his killing spree. (Security escorted him out of the psych hospital he went to seek help from his doctor who worked there)
It’s clear to everyone that the guy is batshit insane, and that is the entire explaination for why he did what he did. I just can’t find the energy to hate the poor sick fucker. If you research the case, you’ll find not only cries for help, but the guy actually tried to get admitted to a psych hospital days before the killing spree, and was escorted out by security.
IME, a psychopath can observe some of society’s major rules and regulations. For example, my dad never committed a major felony (that I know of). He also managed to follow the rules at work well enough to be promoted to a position of some respect. However, it is not possible for a true psychopath to completely pass for normal. Even people who do not know him well figure out there is something wrong with him shortly after meeting him. People who have known him for years know he is an irredeemable bastard. There is not one longstanding acquaintance who likes him. Psychopaths just don’t have that much control.
This is why I think Dexter is unrealistic. His sister loves him. Real psychopaths can’t bottle their true nature up long enough to build or maintain that kind of relationship. Also, their greatest joy in life (or one of them) is using their family members as pawns in their own sadistic little games. Family members always know that the psychopath is a fucking nut job.
IIRC the Economist had a brief article on the success of sociopaths at investing wisely, the lack of “emotional interference” or some such thing being a benefit to them.
One of our welfare tenants. This woman was the biggest con artist I ever met. When welfare realized what she was doing, they cut her off. We took her to court and got a dispossess. When the Sheriff showed up, he recognized her name and insisted I go with him to lock her out. She called the cops on the sheriff! She claimed she’d never gotten any notices and that “Social Services is going to pay my rent.” I called SS and they denied it.
For weeks after she left, we got calls and police visits from people she had screwed out of money. She literally took money from everyone she could. Someone let her use our phone in an emergency, and the calls included long distance and emergency break ins. When she came in again to use it I told her “NO.”
She claimed to have had a horrible past, her son was murdered, she was a lesbian who had been thrown out of her last apartment because of it. None of it was true.
I know someone like this - he made very sure that there are very few people who’ve known him long or close enough to spot what is up (e.g. no friends outside work). He has an established career and is married, but although he seems to form close relationships or attachments, it is more as though he views people as property, or his territory, than another individual. Anyone else he just drops when they aren’t useful. He doesn’t tend to play games, simply because he doesn’t think the majority of people are worth noticing.
When I said he acted normally, a friend of mine summed it up with “Yes. He acts normal.”
I met some in the nut house. Psychopaths in the bin tend to drop cover among the other nuts. Talking together, they are creepy at an incredible level. The common goal is getting out. The concept of getting better is anathema, and mentioning it will get you shunned by them, and treated very badly. How to play the nurses or doctors is a major subject of conversation, as is retribution to the ones responsible for them being in the hospital.
Those who are dysfunctional in social interactions are considered entertainment. Getting them put into seclusion is a sport. If you progress from dysfunction to mental health, the reaction is to ask you for details on how to scam the system. At this point for me, as I became better, I realized I didn’t want to help these people. That is rare for me, since helping people is my big shtick. However, being insane had taught me a lot about people. And this particular sub set of people didn’t need help. They needed concrete and steel as limits, and they needed those limits imposed by people without false expectations.
I ended up with a very different perspective on the use of insanity as a legal defense. Yeah, you’re nuts. You are a dangerous criminal, and being nuts doesn’t change anything about that except one thing. Your ability to be rehabilitated is not reliable. I think the insanity “defense” should include life long sentences as a minimum. The sentence might not need to include lifelong imprisonment, but you should never be allowed to be unmonitored. You proved that by committing crimes, and you proved your promise is not valid, by believing that your insanity made a difference in your responsibility for your actions. Society needs to be protected from you.
TrisMy former boss, from the moment I met him, gave me a creeping feeling like I shouldn’t trust him. At first I chalked it up to me sometimes being shy when meeting new people, but when that feeling didn’t go away, I started wondering why I felt this way. He seemed outgoing and nice, and could be quite charming when he wanted to. Soon, though, his true self began to come out. It started out as him giving me and my co-worker his tasks to do - not just some tasks, but ALL his work. We were doing his job for him. Meanwhile, he’d play games on his computer, blab on the phone with his friends, or take 2-hour lunch breaks. Then, he began to get nasty. Once I made a spelling mistake on a report he asked me to type for him, and he made me sit in a chair while he hovered over me and yelled about what a bad worker I was, how stupid I was, and that I was going to get fired if I didn’t watch myself. For a spelling mistake. This sort of punishment began to be a regular occurrence, and I was eventually paranoid of making a mistake because of what he’d do. Of course, he’d watch until he knew he could get me alone, so nobody else would see how he was treating me.
He was also very creepy, making inappropriate sexual comments to the young female part-time staff, and a couple times to me. Once he asked me out of the blue how old I was when I lost my virginity ( :eek: ). I refused to tell him, of course, and he told me I was a “poor sport” and “no fun”. Ugh.
He seemed to be happier than normal when he knew someone else was suffering in some way. If he heard of someone being sick or hurt, he’d talk about it endlessly, taking on this air of concern, but he seemed…excited about it. It was as if he was talking about a new stereo system or something. Not right.
After a year of enduring this, I finally went to HR to tell them my concerns, and upon finding out, he made my life hell for the next 3 years after that. If he sensed I was having a good day, he’d go out of his way to ruin it somehow. 2 years ago, he was finally fired because some of the part-time girls finally stepped up and made complaints about his creepy behavior. Upper management couldn’t ignore it any longer now that there were multiple complaints, and they turfed his ass. The day my co-worker told me that the asshole was fired was a day of celebration for me. I’m now very thankful to have a new, human boss, and I hope the psycho is never in a position of power over anyone again.
The insanity defense doesn’t work that way. It’s to determine whether or not people were lucid enough to understand their actions, the consequences of their actions, and whther or not they could comprehend the basics of right and wrong.
A schizophrenic who is in the throes of a major psychosis might think the neighbour is an evil demon that escaped from a hell portal to suck his soul painfully through his chest and will hit the neighbour with an axe because he’s afraid for his life. He has no clue what’s going on in the real world.
A sociopath knows damn well that murdering your neighbour is illegal, agaist the rules of soicety, and is “wrong”, but will murder the neighbour anyway because he wants to see how much blood will come out.
Totally different scenarios.
The former had no control over his faculties, he was reacting in a terrified frenzy. The socipath was totally lucid and able to make the cognizant choice to murder or not.
I’ve known people who were heartless, manipulative, self-centered amoral asses, but I can’t say they are true psychopaths or sociapthats. My ex’s dad creeps people out, and if you judge by a lot of the criteria in this thread, a lot of people here would think he’s a sociopath. He has Aspergers.
Yes, somewhat different scenarios. But they are not totally different. The fact of behavior is that the guy killed by a delusional, or irrational person is just as dead as the guy killed by a sociopath.
I really don’t have much interest in the punishment of criminals. I do have an interest in protecting society from the actions of criminals, and both of these people have demonstrated that they are a danger to others, and, in my opinion, will always represent a danger to others. I understand my opinion is not legal fact, but I think the current legal outlook is unreasonable.
Yes, you are crazy. That doesn’t change the fact that you are dangerous. It does change the reliability of any rehabilitation you might claim to have gone through. I also think a sociopath that obeys the law should be free to have whatever opinions he desires about the rest of the world. Guys who want to preach the coming of doom on street corners aren’t dangerous, but are crazy. I don’t want them locked up either. I don’t mind trying to give them some help, but usually they don’t want any.
Crazy, or sociopathic are not matters of civil, or criminal relevance. Assault, murder, theft, and such are. They might be statistically related, but that doesn’t change the fact that “by reason of mental defect” should not imply innocence. Innocence is like virginity. Having a good reason doesn’t make you innocent, or a virgin.
Tris