I sorta know a girl with BPD who, last I talked to her, seemed to be getting her life together. It is one of the ones with the best therapeutic outcome, and one that might actually be willing to see a therapist. Schizoid is actually less likely, IIRC, and narcissistic and anti-social are the worst at thinking there is nothing wrong with them.
Do they all have problems with empathy? I’d not realized that was a feature of BPD. At least–I thought they had empathy for people who they idealized. Hence why you can easily wind up in a relationship with them without noticing the problem.
It’s tricky because most people with one personality disorder are likely to fit the criteria for another one. I’d say Borderline Personality Disorder very much characterized my Mom, but she probably also qualified for Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. I don’t think lack of empathy per se is a defining characteristic of Borderline Personality Disorder but that doesn’t mean people with Borderline Personality Disorder won’t also struggle with empathy.
Has Daniel Amen’s Ted talk been linked yet? I found it very interesting, it’s about using brain scans as a psychiatric diagnostic tool. One of the things that comes up is situations where a change in personality/behavior turned out to be due to an operable condition.
I don’t know about “solve”, but I can tell you that the Grandfather from Hell would have been many times worse if it hadn’t been for his father’s influence (he inherited his “wonderful personality” from his mother). My mother still doesn’t really perceive most other people as, well, people (we’re props for her life), but she learned very early how to treat people as if she did care and that this would give improved results; she’s been expanding the circle of “self-moving props which I treat as people” throughout her life. Idiot Aunt hasn’t become any more lovable through treatment but she seems to be generally happier. Her official diagnoses are PTSD and bipolar, but then, very few psychiatrists here will give an explicit personality diagnosis even if they are treating it; the “borderline” list is checkmark after checkmark for her and note that she meds she was on for a while were mood stabilizers (she is now on an “oriental fit” and refusing all medications because they mess with her chakras).
Now seriously, something I realized recently and let’s see if I can say this straight, is how much of her problems (and of her children’s problems) are due to her having had both a bad starting point (nature) and a bad environment: the Grandparents from Hell are her parents, after all, and the Spain she grew up in wasn’t exactly the healthiest society ever.
There are many ways in which our world is so, so much better than that one. Sometimes it may seem as if it’s not; now you can find stats on “people killed by her spurned lovers” on the front page of mainstream newspapers, where back then such stories were treated individually and only by the local equivalent of the National Enquirer. But a lot of that appearance is the Culture of Fear, and a lot is that we’ve gone from “I killed her because she was mine” being considered a perfectly reasonable line of thought to seeing that it’s fucked up. I grew up in a better environment than she did; my nephews are growing up in a better place than I did. Excuse me if it’s corny but dagnabit, it’s getting better and so long as most people choose to make things better as much as we can it will go on getting better. Without any need to license parents…
I used to be prescribed with Asperger’s syndrome back in 2010, but ever since I stopped taking psychology pills, I’ve grown out of the syndrome. Before I was an introvert (in real life, anyways), not interested in going outside and staying home, but it wasn’t until I was in college that I started to grow out of my introverted personality. I still don’t have any permanent contacts besides my family, but I will mingle with society and talk to some of my colleagues in a program I’m currently in. I do things old-school, talking to actual people and going outside (and looking for clubs and taverns), unlike most people in my generation who’d rather use Twitter and social media outlets to chat with individuals (I think that would just take too much time- there’s so many things in the world I could do than just sit on my ass near a computer (or phone) and type my life worries away, possibly talking to computer bots for all I know. I think it’s because I actually went out the house and enjoyed the fine things in life, food, drinks, the architecture of the cities, and the other finer things in life, that I matured emotionally and became more comfortable with life. I guess.
Claiming that listing behaviors typical of the condition is ‘stigmatizing’ is not the same thing as discussing whether there is stigma against the condition. You still have yet to explain how the DSM criteria for the condition are ‘stigmatizing’ (or what non-stigmatizing criteria should be used instead), and repeatedly try to change the subject away from the specific claim, while painting me as a bad person for questioning you.
The game of shifting what you’re talking about and then trying to paint me as a bad person because of your rephrasing is one that I have experience with, and I’m not going to fall for it again.
People with BPD tend to have very poor cognitive empathy. They are very good at picking up on subtle cues to figure out what emotion you’re experiencing, but not good at forming a model of how you’re feeling and reacting to a situation. They mostly project their own thought process and feelings onto the other person and think that they have very good empathetic understanding when they are often way off the mark.
The intense relationship bonding generally has more to do with love bombing and mirroring. Love bombing is throwing lots of affection at the other person really early and really intensely. While it manipulates the person, it’s not consciously motivated by ‘trap them in place’, instead the pwBPD experiences really extremely intense emotion quickly, and expresses this. Mirroring is copying the interests, goals, and passions of the other person. Because pwBPD don’t have a strong sense of self, they tend to pick up a lot of personality from the person they’re with. The feeling of ‘we have so much in common’ is also very intense for bonding, though again a big portion of it is not rooted in consciously manipulating someone for a result, but in the pwBPD doing what works for them internally.
My first wife of 20 years was a borderline. You described it very well. She is 71 now and still struggling. Anytime she had a new friend she would become a new person, speech, mannerisms, interests would change overnight. For a while I thought she was overcomming it through AA but she was just basicaly mimicing the semi normal people in her social group. As soon as things changed as they always do she fell apart again. One thing interesting I have noticed over the years is that if she attaches to a fairly normal person she seems to act fairly normal herself. The trouble comes when the other person feels the need to establish boundaries.
Nobody called you a bad person. Saying that I disagree with you is not characterizing you as a bad person. I am participating in this thread because I was raised by a woman with Borderline personality disorder and understanding how her brain works was critical to my survival growing up, because I’ve done extensive research on this topic in an attempt to help my mother, and because I am married to a clinical psychologist who received intensive training to treat the disorder.
I am participating in this thread in good faith, and I would hope based on my history of reasonable and fair dialog on the Straight Dope, any poster who disagreed with my position would assume I had the best of intentions, not the worst. I will provide a detailed response to your question about stigma when I am done at work.
I’m afraid you appear to be projecting. You are correct about what her claim was, but your most recent counterargument was to accuse her of justifying the behaviors of people with this disorder due to the stigma. In other words, you shifted what was being talked about. She merely responded.
You also took it further. You effectively accused her (within the boundaries of the SDMB rules) of having a personality disorder herself because she was showing empathy for them. Rather than treat them as non-human and treat their claims as false, she assumes that their claims of stigma do in fact mirror how they feel. You tried to paint her as the bad guy, and “how dare you” is an appropriate response.
To be honest, it seems like all your responses to her have been a bit overly hostile–so much that I was surprised that your measured response to me was from the same person. You suddenly were able to understand things from their point of view, rather than treat them like conniving liars who were just making excuses, and people you needed to run far away from.
I can definitely see how the criteria might seem stigmatizing, especially to someone who is already predisposed to seeing any criticism as being much more negative than it already is. I see no reason for such terms.
When my therapist diagnosed me with schizoid PD, she told me that initially she did not want to. Because telling someone their personality is fucked up makes most people defensive and/or demoralized. And why wouldn’t it do this? You’re essentially telling a person that they are a fucked up person. Not that their thoughts and feelings are wrong. But their entire personality is wrong.
On this board alone, we spend so much time bashing people with borderline PD. Imagine if you went to therapy to get help with your anxiety and your therapist told you were borderline. I know I wouldn’t embrace that diagnosis.
But getting pinned with the “schizoid” label didn’t trigger shame, embarrassment, or defensiveness in me. Just some initial confusion followed by relief.
Thanks, BigT. Pantastic seems to have mistaken me for an unreasonable person. Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system, let me elaborate on my previous points.
First, the language that I described as stigmatizing did not come from the DSM and I never claimed it did. It was another psychologist’s proposed language. I’ve done a little digging since I don’t know much yet about the DSM-V… and the diagnostic criteria for BPD haven’t changed much from DSM-IV to DSM-V.
[QUOTE=Borderline Personality Disorder, DSM-V Diagnostic Criteria]
To meet a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder under the DSM-V, you must show “a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following”:
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., substance abuse, binge eating, and reckless driving)
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
[/QUOTE]
This, to me, seems quite a bit different than
[QUOTE=proposed language]
Unpredictable, manipulative, unstable. Frantically fears abandonment and isolation. Experience rapidly fluctuating moods. Shift rapidly between loving and hating. See themselves and others alternatively as all-good and all-bad. Unstable and frequently changing moods. People with borderline personality disorder have a pervasive pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships.
[/QUOTE]
The term ‘manipulative’ in particular is highly problematic and appears time and time again in materials and literature proposing to help people deal with those who have the disorder. And in a weird coincidence of google, this citation comes rather unexpectedly right out of my husband’s very own group practice.
[QUOTE=Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder with Compassion]
In this article, I would like to address the idea of “manipulation” because often it is the perception of the other non-diagnosed person in the relationship that they are the victim of manipulation. What is manipulation and why does this behavior occur? Patients and family members of patients often describe feeling manipulated by their loved ones’ acts of self-harm; such as cutting, threats of suicide, dramatic or volatile emotional upset, use of guilt, neediness, or rejection, for example. Often these family members will describe feeling drawn in and then rejected or pushed out of their loved ones’ realm of focus or attention and do not understand why or what causes this person’s inconsistent behaviors.
<snip>
…If you are in a relationship with someone with a BPD diagnosis, it is important for you to learn how to communicate using a common language that helps both of you understand each other’s needs and how to meet them, as well as learn how to meet your own needs and take care of yourself. It is possible to have balance without accusing the person with BPD of “manipulation.” Using the term manipulation to describe someone with BPD is not fair, and in my experience, using it creates unhelpful barriers to treatment and self-acceptance. The behaviors that feel like manipulation are this person’s attempts to feel relief, feel connected, avoid pain, get help, or assert his/her rights. And whether we have the diagnostic label of BPD attached to us or not, we can all understand those needs.
[/QUOTE]
This is essentially based on Linehan’s theoretical framework. To elaborate on some of Linehan’s points, accusing people of BPD as being ‘‘manipulative’’ could also be seen as a way of diverting responsibility for your own behavior. Because BPD is a maladaptive pattern of interpersonal relationships, how the loved one chooses to respond is going to have an impact. My Mother talked frequently of suicide, her only serious attempt as far as I know occurred when I was fifteen, but the specter of her committing suicide hung over my head for years. It would be easy to ascribe that to her ‘‘manipulation’’ but in reality, it was my willingness to allow that fear to control my behavior that reinforced the behavior in her. I learned not to change my own behavior based on what I thought she might do. I stopped making it my responsibility to protect her from herself. And when I did that, we both moved into a much healthier space.
As for alternative diagnostic criteria for Borderline, as again, I already stated in this thread, one proposed alternative by trauma psychologist Judith Herman (who was on the committee for defining PTSD in the DSM-IV) in her landmark work Trauma and Pscyhology was the diagnosis Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
As I stated upthread, I was diagnosed with CPTSD when I was 19. It is not currently recognized in the DSM, but Herman’s explanation of the impact of prolonged trauma in Trauma and Recovery was so accurate to where I was at that time in my life it is fucking scary. I consider it the most important book I ever read about mental health, and those diagnostic criteria could just as easily apply to my mother as me.
The difference, essentially, is that nobody viewed me as a ‘‘difficult person,’’ therefore I was spared the stigma.
So, you know, maybe the answer to the question, ''Ever seen someone overcome a personality disorder?" is ‘‘Yeah, that was probably me’’!
At 19, 20 years old, I did have some interpersonal problems and boundary and emotion regulation problems. I couldn’t function in college. I sought help from a highly experienced, knowledgeable and compassionate psychologist who introduced me to the entire concept of CPTSD. From there I moved on to evidence-based treatments such as CBT, prolonged exposure, and ACT.
I am not an abusive person and I have no history of instability in any of my relationships except the one with my mother. I have a strong, healthy marriage and a life full of wonderful, compassionate people. I’ve made wise decisions in who I spend my time with, and I actively fight, every day, against disordered thinking. The absolute proof that I have overcome is that I was finally able to break off my terribly unhealthy relationship with my mother.
This is the challenge, the real legacy, of dealing with someone who is seriously mentally disturbed. I know that what I’m posting is an accurate assessment of the disorder and I know that the stigma, the language used by laypeople and so-called experts alike can pose a significant barrier to treatment. But I can’t state the facts without feeling bad for having established my own boundaries, or feeling guilty for my anger toward my Mother. Even posting about this I second-guess myself, how can I be so angry knowing her behavior is a result of mental illness? Is that fair to her? Should I have handled things differently?
There must be a balance between compassion for the person with the disorder and ability to establish your own, healthy boundaries and protect yourself from abuse. Finding that balance can be one of the hardest things about this.
Does (or did) your mother believe she had a keen ability to “read” people? My gf, who is diagnosed BPD, is very much this way. The thing is, she does have a very unusual ability to perceive and recognize emotions and mental states. However, this ability is a double edged sword. That’s because even when she is completely wrong about what she thinks she’s picking up on, there is no convincing her otherwise.
No, my Mom has frequently said she finds people utterly baffling and does not understand them at all.
If your girlfriend has BPD, she likely has a history of childhood abuse, in which case the ability to read people makes perfect sense. There is good evidence that people who were abused in childhood have a keen ability to read people - because their safety/lives depended on it for so long. I pick up on very subtle cues in body language and tone of voice faster than other people, especially with regard to agitation, stress, or anger.
I would strongly suggest looking into Linehan’s work and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, as her treatment always involves family and loved ones, and helping people understand their loved one and cope with the more difficult behaviors without totally villainizing them as people.
I’d also recommend anyone struggling with repeated trauma such as childhood abuse or prolonged captivity pick up a copy of Trauma and Recovery. It’s geared toward clinicians and it’s an emotionally brutal read to see your life broken down so analytically, but it helped me understand myself better than any other book I’ve ever read.
