Before I say anything I need to say that I don’t believe in any world wide flood or any other such BS.
I understand what you’re trying to say, but you can not say that dinosaurs would have been around with humans. Unless you want to believe that all the different animals were around at the same time. Nor do I think that if you went looking in one place you would find everything. During floods stuff gets washed away all the time, it doesn’t all stop in one place.
No, but there is evidence of major flooding in some areas. Woolley’s excavations at Ur showed that there was 10-13 meters of sediment. I would say that with that much coming down near the same time you could never figure out what happened. It would be like taking 20 1000 piece puzzles, mixing them up and scatering them over a few miles. I’d say massive flooding would destroy everything, not like the stuff one finds on mountains.
I don’t know the specifics of where it came from, as I missed that particular logistics meeting when we were planning it; I have a vague impression that the water was recruited from the Kuiper Belt and tessered to Earth, using a sub-ether hypersignal for homing; the telemetry was handled from Luna. But, anyway, I was on the drainage detail, and we moved the water to Dimension Sigma-298833-Epsilon Tau. That’s where we keep the unicorns as well.
You do realize that there are different fossils for different habitats, right? Work with me here - how did the trilobites get under the ancient fish who got under the dinosaurs who got under the later mammals? Were they all in different locations, that just happened to get washed together? Try to put together a remotely plausible explanation that fits the facts.
Since when do floods raise mountains - even big ones? Flood plains are flat. Were there a bunch of waves that happened to wash up enough sediment to build the Himalayas?
Not to mention the minor problem of how one rickety wooden boat calmly sails through all this. And why didn’t Noah wind up on the really tall mountain, not the dinky one in the Ararat chain?
Common misconception. The Architect was not directly involved in the flood, any more than She was directly involved in creation. Just as the Demiurge oversaw the actual donkey work of the ex nihilo creation, various ainuric contractor, subcontractors, and day laborers handled the Deluge.
Um…well, I don’t believe all those animals were around at the same time. Most people who posit a world wide flood do though. I might be making an assumption about the OP there though. If that was your point, then I conceed it. If you are talking about something else though then I’m not sure what you are getting at.
IF all these things were alive then, and there was a flood, we would expect to see a jumble of different species all tossed together as chance had it. When the flood waters receeded (gods know where the water was supposed to go), then bodies would be basically dumped wherever they happened to be. Since there probably wouldn’t be anything left alive higher than bacteria, there would be no scavengers, so bodies would just decompose in situ…those not torn apart by the flood event itself.
I certainly wasn’t making the claim that the flood would wash everything together into one place, if that was your point. If you thought thats what I was getting it, its because my post was appearently poorly writen. Apologies.
Well…I agree. Did I give you the impression that I thought otherwise? There have been some major (local) flood events in the past…and we have evidence of them. There was a major flood in the black sea area for instance…and several in North America (upper Canada and in the South West)…and there is ample evidence of them. And yes…it would be a jumble, except instead of miles we are talking about a world wide jumble. You would expect to see all manner of species mixed together.
Interest, I have a suggestion. In the interest of having an actual debate, rather than a flinging of individual sentences that have to be interpreted by your audience and then addressed at length without knowing what you actually mean,
why don’t you post your actual theory of what might have occurred in what you believe to have been a world-wide flood?
It would appear (from your scattered statements) that you believe that a world-wide flood occurred at some relatively recent time (recent used in the geological sense) and that it was accompanied by cataclysmic upheavals of the Earth’s surface. However, I would infer from that that you simply do not undestand the actual evidence that science has gleaned indicating that:
mountains rise slowly over millions of years and are eroded away at a similar rate;
fossils of similar life forms are found in similar layers throughout the world with simpler life forms predominating in lower levels and more complex critters occurring in higher levels;
we have actual evidence in such fields as radiometric (not Carbon-14) dating that confirms the absolute ages of most rock strata to be consistent with the realtive ages deduced from the depth of the layers and the hardness of the rock.
It has nothing to do with friction. Compute the potential energy of a whole lot of water sitting in orbit, or however far out you want. When it hits the ground, the energy is zero. That energy had to go somewhere - the only place it can go, barring a miracle, of course, is heat.
I don’t remember seeing the frictional effect calculated, but the potential energy is bad enough to fry everything even assuming no friction.
Just about anyone who has taken Physics 101 can do the calculation.
Are you implying I never took Physics 101??
Ok, your explaination makes some sense. I suppose I never thought about that aspect of it. I assumed that the cloud cover and moisture in the air would in effect act as a reflector for sunlight, causing even more of a cooling effect. Also, I suppose I hadn’t quite gotten my mind around that much moisture in the atmosphere and was thinking more along the lines of rain AND some kind of melting effect of the poles…along with a good dose of divine water conjuring.
I’d still like to see both the calculations in terms of potential energy released AND Carl’s thoughts on this since I must have missed that part (he does have a rather elaborate debunking of Noah, but I don’t remember the heat part). In fact, I did take both Physics 101 and 102 as well ( ) but its been some time, and I’m a lazy sort…
Consider; we are talking about the kinetic energy of a world wide ocean’s worth of water falling, all over the planet. Imagine what would happen if a worldwide layer of water 7+ miles thick appeared at the cloud layer and fell; that’s the kind of energy we are talking about, just spread out more.
Understatement of the year. Another thought : Most of the soil would have been washed into the ocean as the water drained ( and where would it drain to, I wonder ? ), and the rest would be massively salt contaminated.
Nah. Periodically, someone wanders by who simply does not understand how this place works and is amenable to some direction. The others simply give me a chance to work on my typing. I have no emotional investment in the outcome (as long as it does not spiral down into a flame war).
BTW, guys, your “kinetic energy” issue is based on a flawed reading of Genesis. In addition to the rain, Genesis 7:11 notes
You need to go back to the first chapters and recall the construction of the world (a disk beneath a pocket of air, that separates vaults of water above the heavens (sky) and below the Earth). The rain was simply the visible sign of the flooding, but it had a lot of help from the water flowing up from the vaults beneath the Earth. To end the flood, (Gn 8:2) God had to turn off the springs below the Earth
(The fact that this requires a disk Earth instead of a globe is a separate issue, of course.)
I’m not aware that the Bible says anything about Noah finding that the entire surface of the earth had been rearranged during the flood. And, as mentioned above, there’s no mention of massive earthquakes, or the various other physicial phenomena that would accompany the events you theorize.
So, you’re not here trying to defend biblical literalism – your theory requires an assumption that the bible does not, in fact, include an accurate description of actual events. So, if you’re admitting up front that such is the case, don’t you think that geologists who have painstakingly combed through the actual evidence over the last couple hundred years just *might *have come up with better theories that your seat-of-the-pants WAG?
The only facts I have seen in layers being a distinct fact is that they disprove long time fossilization.
You seem to have forgotten Noah in this flood… Nothing DID survive that flood, except what was on the Ark.
The evidence of such a catastrophic event happening is there, if you have an open mind.
When do you propose that such an event took place…and where is the evidence for it?
-XT
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I have seen no evidence to even remotely support your theory. I AM open-minded enough to reading it, if you would be so kind as to provide it.
Ironically, you’ve touched on the problem right there in this statement. Would it be worth my while to find you some of those facts explaining how it works…or is your mind made up? I don’t want to waste my time, and I suspect it WOULD be a waste, unfortunately.
No, I haven’t forgotten it. But, you see, if we go by the Noah account we get a whole NEW crop of problems. For instance, lets say that Noah did in fact manage to somehow get all those plants, animals, etc onto a big boat…and somehow have the logistics to keep them all alive for as long as the flood event (and its after math) transpired. Impossible, but lets wave that away for a bit.
Unless Noah went around the world on his arc, dropping off species hither and yon, we would see a central point from which all the current species on earth radiated from…presumably Mt Ararat. In addition, unless Noah, undocumented in the bible, managed somehow to gather an incredible diversity of HUMAN genetic material, we would expect to see much less diversity today.
Unfortunately for your theory (and the bible), we see neither of those things. We also see…fish. Why? How did the fish all survive? The whales? Crabs? Crustations? Coral? How did all this stuff live through such an event? No place to put killer whales or manatees on the arc after all…how did they live?
‘Open mind’, ehe? I dinna think that term means what you think it means. Where is this evidence that an open mind can look at and see the light? In the bible? Where else? Because there isn’t a whole lot of evidence (read: none) in the real world. Show me the evidence.
BTW, you still haven’t answered an essential question here. When, exactly, was this event supposed to have taken place? In your theory that is.
The AIG polystrate claim is false (and, I fear) knowingly so. Fossilized tree polystrates are generally found in the beds of ancient volcanic eruptions. The trees are buried to depths of many feet in a single eruption. They then fossilize and are already resistent to erosion as the rest of the material (usually ash) erodes away. There is no period when a rotting tree is standing above a field of clay that is turning to stone.
As to the rare occasions when trilobites have been found in layers that are encountered above layers containing more developed creatures, that occurs when the Earth’s crust is deformed under pressure in a process called folding. If you take the time to track down the ends of the layers, you will find that they are still consistent with normal deposition over millions of years.
Here is the link to the talk origins flood faq. It has a link to the objection to the vapor canopy argument by a creationist. I’ll search for more of this later, no time right now. What you need is a calculation of how much water was in the vapor canopy, and how high it was. Since the final energy is 0, then it is easy - even for a bad physics student like me.
I don’t know who came up with the idea. I saw it in talk.origins a long time ago. The crucial thing is thinking in terms of where the water would be.
tomndebb is correct that this assumes a vapor canopy. Assuming that the water is in the earth has other problems, that the referenced page mentions. (Like where the heck did it get stored?) The idea mentioned there is that the water shot up and fell as rain - same problem. The biggest one, though, is where did the energy come that moved the water from way under the earth’s surface to the earth’s surface?
But I do agree that it would be cool if interest gave us some sort of coherent hypothesis. It would be nice to know if he has thought this through, or has just read it somewhere.
Perhaps not the best site, but a good one to get started on (if you are serious about learning about this stuff…open mind and all that).
Its a section of Talk Origins on the various aspects of the supposed flood. There is a section talking (briefly) about the polystrate claim tomndebb talked about, here (though tomndebb explaination is actually easier to follow).
This is a really basic site…just to get started. There are a lot better sites, but they get overly technical (IMHO), and unless you know the basics its easy for folks to get confused. THe thing about Creationist sites is, while they are generally wrong (generally? ), they do a good job of presenting their stuff so that people with little scientific background can understand their flawed arguements…and not be able to dectect the flaws. I think thats why a lot of people fall for them…they present things in a way that someone with not scientific background can come in and THINK they really do understand.
) but its been some time, and I’m a lazy sort…
), they do a good job of presenting their stuff so that people with little scientific background can understand their flawed arguements…and not be able to dectect the flaws. I think thats why a lot of people fall for them…they present things in a way that someone with not scientific background can come in and THINK they really do understand.