Maybe not full-circle, but a restful position?
Well I certainly don’t think there is any evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Therefore there is no proof that He was the Son of God.
If there is a God, He made me a scientist who wants evidence in order to believe in things.
According to you, that means I’m going to Hell.
Do you think that is either logical or merciful?
(Especially when you consider that I claim to have led a decent life, whereas you say that a serial killer who repents at the last minute spends eternity in Heaven.)
Personally I can’t fathom the moral motives of such a God.
I think this blind obedience is dangerous.
If a preacher tells you to do something so you will please God, will you go ahead unthinkingly?
If a voice in your head says God commands you, will you listen?
Well I certainly don’t think there is any evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Therefore there is no proof that He was the Son of God.
If there is a God, He made me a scientist who wants evidence in order to believe in things.
According to you, that means I’m going to Hell.
Do you think that is either logical or merciful?
(Especially when you consider that I claim to have led a decent life, whereas you say that a serial killer who repents at the last minute spends eternity in Heaven.)
Personally I can’t fathom the moral motives of such a God.
I think this blind obedience is dangerous.
If a preacher tells you to do something so you will please God, will you go ahead unthinkingly?
If a voice in your head says God commands you, will you listen?
No-one saw Christ rise from the dead but many people saw Him AFTER He rose from the dead.
What profound proof are you asking me to share that you know I don`t have?
God is merciful, that was the reason He sent his only Son to begin with.
Would you believe if Christ where here today performing miracles and healing the sick? What if he healed you? How could you prove this happened even if you saw it with your own eyes?
How could you measure or record a divine intervention(for proof)?
I rely on the recorded words of Christ as the basis for my beliefs. If all my information is wrong then I am back to square one(where I contend you are).
So what harm is there in believing?
If Im right and your wrong then Im rewarded. If youre right and Im wrong then we both just turn to dust. I think I`m taking the safer road here.
I`m sure that last statement will be attacked…
We are talking about the salvation of the human soul here, not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. ( I can see the analogies forming now.)
Also, my obedience is in the words of Christ, not a preacher or voices in my head.
My beliefs are parallel to the “matter always existed” idea. Except insert “God” for “matter”.
Some interesting reading,---- “The Hidden Politics of the Crucifiction”, by Glenn Kimball and David Stirland.
Contains information from ancient manuscripts not contained in the Bible. Has some parallels to the Bible but much of the book is original. At least original in the way the info is presented.
[quote]
If youre right and Im wrong then we both just turn to dust. I think I`m taking the safer road here.**
There is no way you can possibly know that. What if God is picky? What if all denominations of Chritianity got it wrong? What if the Mormons are right? What about the other world religions? You don’t know any more than I do that your going to a better place after you die. I’d take education in life, over fear of the afterlife than you very much.
So we are saying (Im saying) that there is not proof for a correct answer. Then I guess it boils down to what you are comfortable with in your life. I made my decision, and you made yours. By the way I said "I think Im taking the safer road" emphasis on THINK.
(How can something be debated logically if there are no correct answers?)
Pascal’s wager is not legal tender here, you’ll find.
If God is so merciful then why did he require a sacrifice at all? Why not just say Ok, the hell with it, you’re forgiven? Doesn’t God have the power to do that? And if he IS going to intervene, then why leave any doubt. Why not leave a perpetual, undeniable sign that all humans can see clearly at any time? (for instance, why not suspend a Buick Lesabre one hundred feet in the air for all eternity? This would be a permanent, verifiable miracle which could not be debunked or debated)
Evidence? (The Bible doesn’t count)
I thought we went over this already. What if you’re wrong and the MUSLIMS are right? In that case you’re an idoloter. Guess what Allah does with idoloters.
What if the Hare Krishnas are right? You could spend your next life as a baboon.
Pascal’s Wager is a fallacy, Whuck. There is no safe choice. Let me repeat, THERE IS NO SAFE CHOICE. If you believe that God is merciful, as you say, then would he really be enough of a jerk to condemn people to eternal torture on the basis of an erroneous belief? Isn’t it impossible anyway for any person to believe precisely the right thing all the way down the line?
Virtually all world religions have a version of the Golden Rule. Let’s listen to Jesus’ version, shall we?
Do this and you will live. Love God, love your neighbor. That’s it. Nothing about belief.
Logical debates do not require “answers” as such. They look for AGREEMENTS based on mutually stipulated predicates. Pascal’s wager is not fallacious because of it’s conclusion per se (i.e. it is safer to believe in God) but because its predicates are incomplete.
Oops, forgot to ask my question. What are these maunuscripts?
Cynic - You present an excellent case here. One which I am not prepared to continue with any degree of defense. However I will respond to two of your points.
If there is no safe choice, are you saying then that no-one should choose anything? Or are you saying that any choice is ok because no-one knows? Clarify.
The scripture you quote, how do you know Jesus actually said that?
If you believe there is a God, did he create?
If so then our life is proof of his existence(don`t need the buick).
The manuscripts you question are, but not limited to; letters between Pilate and Herod, letters from Pilate to Tiberius and Mark Anthony, excerpts from the canonical Nicodemus, The Apology of Ananias, or just go to - ancientmanuscripts.com and click the research button then scroll down to the research links.ancientmanuscripts.com
A couple of things to keep straight.
Destroying Pascal’s wager logically doesn’t mean that there isn’t a right answer, but shows that his ideas are useless for picking a right answer if it does exist.
And, if there is a god, and he did do the creating… that doesn’t imply that:
- We aren’t completely on our own now.
- That the Christian doctrine (or any religion that EVER existed) is the correct answer and describes God and our relationship to him properly.
I’m saying that Pascal’s Wager is not persuasive as a reason to choose belief in God. As to what people SHOULD choose, I have no opinion. My point is only that theistic belief is not any safer than atheistic belief.
I DON’T know. I don’t know that Jesus even existed historically. I was quoting the character called “Jesus” in the gospels. Are you contending that he DIDN’T say this?
This only works if creation cannot be explained in any other way. In order for something to be convincing as a “miracle” you must eliminate all natural explanations. So far this has not occurred vis a vis the existence of the universe.
I don’t even know where to start with this one. Glenn Kimball is basically a crackpot. The majority of his “sources” are spurious. I don’t have the time or inclination to debunk all of his “research” cites (some of which link to sites with titles like “Jews and ritual murder” or “King Arthur in America.”) but I can tell you categorically that a)neither Herod nor Pilate ever wrote a word pertaining to Jesus. b)neither did Marc Anthony c) Most of the other documents he refers too are apocryphal writings from the 3rd century or later. There are no historical references to “Joseph of Arimathea” outside of the Bible.
In fact there are only two scant extra-biblical references to Jesus that are anything close to contemporary. One is from Josephus, the other is from Tacitus. Neither reference says anything about miracles or a resurrection. They both say that he was executed under Pilate and that his followers continued to spread his teachings after his death.(Tacitus actually refers to Christianity as “disease.”)
I’m going to be gentle about this because you seem like a decent guy, but Kimball is simply not a credible resource. If you’re really interested in historical Jesus research let me suggest John Crossan or Robert Funk. They are both key members of the Jesus Seminar with which you may be familiar. And just to be fair, I’ll give you the name of a researcher who believes in the divinity of christ. His name is Ray Brown. He is the leading figure for the pro-faith side of this debate. I may not agree with Brown’s conclusions but he is not (I’m sorry) the total charlatan that Kimball is.
Diogenes the Cynic,
Since I haven’t done so earlier or elsewhere, let me welcome you to the boards myself.
I have now seen a number of your posts pop up in a few threads and each has displayed a wide expanse of base knowledge, patience, thoughtfulness, and intelligence. It’s very nice to have another of that caliber around.
BTW, are you on vacation or retired or something? The reason I ask, I see 400+ post in less than 2 months. I haven’t checked them all, but the posts I have seen indicate an unusual level of quality overall. With the time constraints in my life, the fewer posts I do make have significant quality lapses.
Anyway, welcome aboard.
Hi Scotth, thanks for the kind words. I tend not to be as thoughtful when it comes to BBQ threads as GD but thanks anyway.
My “base knowledge” such as it is tends to be strongest in relation to philosophy/religion (that is my background) as well as some peripheral fields such as history and classical languages. I try to stay away posting in threads where I am ignorant of the subject matter. (you will not catch me trying to argue about physics, for instance) I guess my training in philosophy helps me to present arguments in ways which are coherent and logically sound.
I recently made a decision to become a stay-at-home dad during the week and work on the weekends. So I have lots more internet time than I’ve ever had before.
See you around the boards,
Diogenes
Diogenes - I applaud your overall patience and knowledge on this subject. Tho I was not a formidable opponent, I would not have taken this in stride had it been from a lessor person. Your arguements are well thought out and concise. In short, I learned much from the discussions here. Scotth, Glee, and Mangetout - You were also very helpful in this debate. I respect the positions that you each hold and understand completely(to the point I could argue your side if I chose) your points of view. Whether or not I agree with your conclusions (or choose to agree) is a seperate matter of the heart which will not be debated.
Thanks again,
BKK
DtC, (if you don’t mind me asking), are you getting email at the address listed in your profile? I figure you will see this right away as you appear to be on the board at the moment.
Scotth. Yes I do get e-mail at the listed address.
Ok then, you got mail.
“and still it moves”