I have some questions for people that believe in both evolution and souls/Christianity. Do you believe that all self-replicating entities have souls (virus, prions, bacteria, etc.)? Do you believe that the soul is discrete? That is, in an earlier time in human evolution, did humanoids have “less” of a soul, or is a soul a soul? Are human souls different from other souls? Was there a point in evolution at which someone without a soul gave birth to someone with one? If we start tinkering with the human genome, will we reach a point where we have changed so many genes that the result is no longer human, and/or no longer has a soul? Could we genetically engineer a soul into other animals?
The official catholic position, as in Humanis Generis
See also an article by Stephen Jay Gould.
I’ve mentioned this before, but the idea that makes most sense to me (assuming for the sake of argument that such things as souls do actually exist) would be that the soul is an emergent property of consciousness and sentience and that it isn’t a quantized unit - i.e. that it ‘develops’ along with the owner’s personality.
Naturally, I don’t have a shred of evidence to support this idea, but it is the only one I can find that (and again, assuming that there are such things as souls) properly reconciles with (among other things) the problem of when a fertilised ovum becomes a person.
The general Orthodox opinion (a rough version) is that the human consists of the σομα, the ψυχη, and the νους. It is the functions of the νους, or “noetic” functions that distinguish us as “having souls”. However, only humans are considered “complete beings” from a salvific standpoint. Angels and demons are “incomplete” because they may have ψυχη and νους but lack σομα. Non-human animals are “incomplete” because they have σομα and some measure of ψυχη but lack νους. However, unlike Cartesian noeology, the Orthodox do not extend lack of νους to mean “emotionless machine that cannot feel pain or think in any way”. Cruelty to animals is a sin in the Orthodox Church.
So what does it mean to have a ψυχη but lack νους? That’s one of those tricky areas for which a good answer may not be possible to simply deduce. In simplest terms, it means that one cannot obtain salvation–however, it also means that one cannot be damned, since it is the noetic faculty that permits either. Regarding the “afterlife” of non-human animals, there is no official Orthodox dogma on the matter, nor need there be. Christ was not born to “save the animals”, He was born to save sinners, and it is humans who are the sinners, not the animals.
Ryan:
FWI, I started this thread back in June with a very similar OP.
It’s a subjective thing but in my worldview it’s the other way around…
The soul to me is that ethereal thing that animates us. If consciousness is our awareness that we exist, and the mind is the software that allows us to understand the world, the soul is the name we give to that most basic life force that separates us from rocks and such. In that view a tree would have a soul but no consciousness or mind.
So, a soul is a necessary part of life? Does the soul of a tree survive the death of the tree?
Got me… I’m still on the fence with that whole immortal soul business
Using physical words to describe the spiritual soul can be only an approximation.
All that exists is conscious energy. The sum total of this energy is called God or whatever name you desire. This energy is held together by a force called love. Each individual thing is molded from this energy and is conscious. So to speak everything is spiritual energy and is conscious of itself and its surroundings.
There is an evolution of this energy from “spark” to “full flame”. This evolution is accomplished by gathering more and more energy and love as experience and learning take place.
Each thing is spirit. We do not have souls, we are souls. The physical form is just another step in our evolution and we may spend many lifetimes gathering knowledge and wisdom (energy and love) before we continue on to the next level.
Nothing is lost, everything progresses, but at different speeds depending on the individual. It is a safe life we live because the parts (us) are held safe within the whole (God).
Love
Leroy
Lekatt: Sounds great. And you know this, how??
John Mace wrote:
[Saruman]I have seen it…[/saruman]
Lekatt wrote:
Angels do not make love, angels ARE love – Barbarella
Ludovic:
You’ve been spending too much time peering into that palantir.
I learned what I wrote from my near death experience.
I would like to add, all pain and suffering in this world is caused by us humans fearful for our survival. But our survival is guaranteed.
Love
My son’s four years old, and he’s not fearful for his survival. He scraped his knee when he fell off his bike. What that then the result of my fear for his survival? Seems to me it left him in a lot of pain, which would fall under your quote of all pain.
I know little, I believe nothing, I have wierd suspicions though.
the books:
OLD SOULS by Tom Shroder
THE ULTIMATE FRONTIER by Eklal Kueshana
both talk about reincarnation. TUF mentions evolution. It claims our bodies were evolved to a point where they were acceptable “vehicles” for souls. The universe is a playground where we are supposed to develop our minds/souls.
TUF claims there are “forces” opposed to our advancemaent tho. What has been given the name Satan by Chriatians, Mara the evil one by Budhists. The Dragon in Revelations?
Dal Timgar
We do not come into the physical as a blank slate. We carry the fears and loves of our previous physical existence with us.
Humans designed and created the bike and bought it for the little human who fell from it. He didn’t have to ride it and moreover spirits become human by choice, they don’t have to do that either.
My real meaning was humans cause the pain as opposed to what God allows. God allows everything, to interfere would be to stop the learning. This is a safe place to learn, our bodies can be hurt and destroyed but not us. We are not our bodies.
Love
I agree that the physical world has opposing forces, they are created in the same manner as the physical was created. However in the spiritual world there is only Love or not love. No opposing force exists.
Love
You didn’t answer the question. Unless, of course, you mean that “Riding the Bike” was a symptom of “being fearful for survival”, which is wacky even for you.
How many times have I answered the question and been told I didn’t; perhaps the answer was not understood or not the expected reply.
Yes, learning to ride a bike, drive a car, etc., can be a symptom of being fearful for survival. We must be like others, prepare for the future. Go to school, be one of the “regulars” instead of being ourselves. It is forced, it is the law, no one must be different.
Love
[quote]
Yes, learning to ride a bike, drive a car, etc., can be a symptom of being fearful for survival. We must be like others, prepare for the future. Go to school, be one of the “regulars” instead of being ourselves. It is forced, it is the law, no one must be different.
[quote]
What on earth does that mean? How is driving a car being fearful for survival? I cannot even understand Sentence 2, 3, or 4.