Evolutionary Cognitive Neuroscience: The Revenge

This piece of rhetoric is easily proven. There are a number of identical twins separated from birth. Are any of them financially set for life due to this fact? If you can demonstrate that, then this bit of fluff gains some substance; otherwise it’s just an empty polemic.

“Early” does not mean the same thing as “main”. There are numerous other studies.

Bit of a poisoned-well fallacy here, don’t you think?

The oblique appeal to authority falls flat here, since Lea Winerman is a journalist, not a psychologist. Not the last of the problem, however…

The article deals with problematic interpretations that crop up sometimes with twin data. It also deals with ways that these are being improved. Even the critical source in the article says that some of the problem assumptions aren’t as important as one thought.

What relevance could such a study have even in the most ideal world? It would be impossible to rule out that the parents treat the children differently, unless they were foster parents who didn’t know that one child was adopted.

Have you read any good books on the subject, say some of Steven Pinker’s work?

Haven’t read the thread in any great detail (will do so later on), but does evolutionary psychology have to be genetic? Consider this:

[ul][li]Much of our individual viewpoints and responses are shaped by the society in which we are raised.[/li][li]These societies themselves represent organic processes: they gradually and slowly evolve, albeit at a pace much faster than homo sapiens itself.[/li][li]The various human societes are themselves competitive and prone to environmental pressures. Native American societies were devasated when European germs were introduced, for example. Even now, some societies are dying out because of assimilation by other, more successful societies.[/ul][/li]In short, psychology is an evolutionary process, it’s just not necessarily a genetic evolutionary process. The attitudes of an American in 2009 are likely to be different in several significant ways from an American in 1809, but this is clearly not an evolution of humanity, but just of American culture itself - picking up new traits (suffrage, equality, technology) while discarding useless ones (slavery, biblical literalism, aristocracy) though appendix-like vestiges remain.

To state the bleedingly obvious, I meant that eye color, hair color, and all the rest cannot be changed merely by mental effort. They can be changed by physical means, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion.

Let’s try to separate out a few different topics that have been combined together here, shall we.

Nature v Nurture.
Part A. Twin Studies.

Twin studies are not restrict to nor primarily identical twins raised apart. They generally consist of comparing concordance rate for a particular trait between identical and fraternal twins. The degree to which identical twins share a trait substantially more than do fraternal twins (who equally shared environmental factors) quantifies how much specific genes play a role in the trait. Such studies show elements of heritability for many behavioral traits, including prosocial behaviors, anxiety/depression, pathologic gambling,, eating rate, substance abuse, and many others. As for the critique that identical twins may be treated more alike than fraternal twins … yeah, and so? Why? Because of the the way they look and the way they behave/react differently than a twin with a different genome? Uh yeah. Influencing how someone responds to and is responded to by the environment including others is one mechanism of how genes effect behavioral outcomes.

 Part B. Individual Genes.

Of course the genome influences behavior in concert with the environment and by way of multiple genes and epigenetic factors. A gene may be associated with advantages if coupled with another gene or disadvantages when coupled with different ones, be beneficial in one environment or for one task and detrimental in a nother or with another task. So having an exact and reproducible, easily pegged gene-behavior concordance? Doubtful. Having effects that could be the fodder for selection? No doubt.

You may want to get your hands on this Nov.'08 Science article. The full article is behind the wall but I’ll quote some pertinent parts.

Our genomes give us some particular tendencies (that may be hard to exactly describe); how they are expressed is a function of the environment.

Evolutionary Biology.

 A fine way of organizing thinking and of using evolutionary concepts to help understand how behavioral tendencies might come to be but it is hard-pressed to make very many falsifiable claims. It's sort of like the String Theory of biology.

Beats the heck out of me. In my first thread on evolutionary psychology, many posters responded to me by saying that the existence of human universals proved the basis of evolutionary psychology. Now that I’ve investigated the basis of these “human universals”, it seems no one wants to defend that line of reasoning any longer.

Upon reread of my post - that should have been “Evolutionary Psychology” obviously. My apologies an having missed that.

Actually it does not. Take the issue of fatty foods. The standard explanation from evolutionary psychology goes like this. Back during caveman times, it was healthy to eat lots of fatty food. As a result, we evolved genes which make us desire fatty foods. Fast forward to modern times, and fat-packed foods are everywhere. Unfortunately our caveman genes still force us to desire fatty foods, hence the prevalence of obesity.

There are problems with this explanation. First of all, we have no gene encoding a desire for fatty foods. We have taste buds on our tongue that produce certain sensations in response to certain tastes, such as sweet, bitter, etc… I suppose some of these categories appear in foods that contain a lot of fat, but there’s nothing pleasurable about fat as fat. Most people would agree that chewing a piece of pure fat is disgusting. (The again, some would disagree.)

In any case, there’s no reason to believe that the flavors we like today are the same ones that our caveman genes were selected to like. Today many of us would enjoy a fattening plate of fettucini alfredo, but there was no fettucini alfredo among the Neanderthals, nor anything that tasted like it. I doubt that roast mammoth haunch tastes much like fettucini alfredo (or french fries or country-fried chicken). In fact we don’t know very much about what our caveman ancestors ate. Bones at a few sites suggest a diet of meat, but we have can’t know any more than that. So the entire explanation for diet is based on far-fetched speculation and not supported by solid facts.

Your investigation consists of:

  1. A non-science blogger quoting a non-science blogger saying “I am a believer in Evolutionary Psychology”.
  2. A color preference study that doesn’t claim to prove a human universal
  3. A lame dismissal of Brown’s list of universals (you can go get the book if you’re really interested in learning about it. It’s an ethnographical and historical analysis of traits that have been observed in every culture that has been studied in a non-trivial way.

As to Brown’s list of human universals, his position was to debunk the concept of cultural relativism. The reason it is significant from the position of evolutionary psychology is that it raises the question… if unrelated cultures halfway across the world both share this trait, how did it get to be that way? We don’t have anything in common except sharing human DNA, so it’s a strong possibility that we can thank genes for producing minds that can give rise to these universals. We already know that genes can influence certain cognitive phenomena, FOXP2 and language for example, so these proposed universals give us other things to investigate for the same sort of convergence.

Actually, there’s CD36, which codes for a taste but receptor that has been associated with fat tasting and digestion. Receptors are proteins. And as you keep pointing out, DNA codes for proteins.

I realize that my post was a bit wordy so allow me to pare it down:[ol]
[li]We know that there are genes that effect behavior in both direct and indirect ways.[/li][li]We know that differences in behavior can effect survival and reproductive success.[/li][li]Any genetic variation that effects survival and reproductive success will be selected for or against.[/li][li]Therefore the basic tenent of evolutionary psychology is sound; specific hypotheses may be speculative at this time however.[/li][/ol]

To state the bleeding obvious, every single physical means I mentioned above follows mental effort. Hair dye doesn’t fall from the sky like rain. You don’t wake up in the morning with tinted contacts. Leg lengthening procedures aren’t the result of a virus. Conversely, emotional attachments aren’t merely mental effort: you have to take such physical actions as talking to someone, engaging in appropriate body language, etc. in order to strengthen those attachments.

We humans are quite adept at taking our genetic hand and altering it according to our will.

YOur other post to me has already been shredded, so I won’t stomp on its remains.

Daniel

I’ve encountered a number of sources that are skeptical about some of the results mentioned in that article. For example, this book contains a response to the Caspi study, looking in detail at what the results were on how convincing they are or aren’t.

(The same source also takes a hammer to twin studies: a double whammy.)

The general issue of serotonin and its link to depression gets cited all the time in discussions like this, yet it’s not as settled as some people seem to think. For one thing, there’s been a recent cascade of drugs aiming to treat depression by means of increasing serotonin levels in the brain. Yet reviews of the performance of those drugs in multiple studies seem to be casting doubt on their effectiveness. An interesting point is made by Marcia Angell in this article. Most people have high confidence in articles written by scientists in this field, but probably do not know where much of the funding for this sort of research is coming from. The pharmaceutical industry provides funding for scientific research in the academic world to the tune of billions of dollars, through a variety of channels. That means that a number of researchers (almost all of them) have a strong motivation to keep the pharmaceutical industry happy. And the industry, needless to say, mainly wants to hear that mental traits have simple, physical causes, because that has to be true for profit to be made. The might cause some researchers, consciously or unconsciously, to tilt their research towards physical explanations.

Anyway, there’s a lot of food for thought here. I’ll try to look into that article when I get the chance.

Why are you citing science studies? You seem to prefer anecdotes, so I’ll offer mine: They work wonderfully for me.

ITR, your sources critique of the gene’s clinical utility (or lack thereof) is immaterial to the issue at hand here: do genes lead to behavioral tendencies and susceptibilities in any statistically significant fashion?

Yes they do. Now the exact pathway and he exact behaviors may be ill-described, and why the same alleles are helpful in one circumstance and harmful in another may be poorly understood; it may be of no clinical utility whatsoever; how the different genes interact with each other and with environmental factors may be not yet completely clear. But it is a documented fact that genes strongly influence behavioral outcomes in humans and that such behaviors would be expected to be fodder for selective pressures.

Honestly to argue the converse, that somehow behavior in humans is absent any genetic influence and immune to selective pressures, is a bit absurd.

Not if you believe in souls like the OP. I’m sure for the sake of his irrational beliefs he’d rather assume that humans are blank slate vehicles that the soul controls.

It’s interesting that the OP is highly critical of a genetic basis for behavior, yet accepts without evidence the existence of god, the supernatural and an afterlife.

It’s amazing that people can compartmentalize their skepticism and only bring it out when it conflicts with something they want to believe.

I wonder if there is a gene for that. :smiley:

There is such an overwhelming amount of evidence that our preferences and behaviors have strong genetic components that I’m really not sure what you’re asking me. I gave a clear example of how your genome encodes for sophisticated repertoires of behavior in the previous thread.

I’m feeling a little ignored. :frowning:

Once more, fucking is a human behaviour, it’s a universal, it’s enjoyable to the overwhelming majority of the members of our species, how the hell are we supposed to be still here if there’s not a genetic incentive for this?

And again, where does instinctive behaviour in animals come from?

Oh and, by the way, even though most behaviours are likely to be polygenic, a single gene that affects human bonding behaviour has, in fact, been found.

There are so many examples like this: hunger, thirst, sociability, language, dominance behavior, imitative play, etc. The idea that we’re blank slates is a really bizarre one.

Daniel

As I said in the other thread (but no one replied to…):

Regarding behavior
Motor cortex has a somatotopic organization of behaviors. Many people are aware of the motor cortex topographic homonculus (image) which has areas dedicated specifically to each body part. Neurons are dedicated to each area in proportion to that area’s survival utility. The mouth/hands get a lot of cortex. The pecker is pretty big too. Less well known is that overlayed on this map is behavioral homunculus that follows the same rule. Putting an electrode in monkey motor cortex forces the monkey to perform activities based on the site of stimulation. The longer the stimulation, the more sophisticated the behavior. For example, its trivial to get the monkey to get out of his chair and try to climb, eat or have sex with nothing. This rule obviously follows for humans as well. The development of such representations is of course a gene/environment interaction, but there is no doubt that these behaviors are encoded in your genome. Your genome encodes for your limbs, and the “environment” for motor cortex is the body, which is encoded for by your genome. It only takes movement of the relevant body parts in order for the appropriate representations to develop. This has been demonstrated in research on kittens. They tape the front two legs back for a significant period of time after birth. That area of motor cortex does not develop. They then remove the tape and allow the kitten to learn to walk. Motor cortex develops identically.
[ul]
[li] Graziano (2006). The organization of behavioral repertoire in motor cortex. Annual Review of Neuroscience (msg me for pdf)[/li][/ul]