The Talmud contains an expansion and elucidation of the laws mentioned in the Torah.
Zev Steinhardt
shees, Zev, why did the catholic church do anything at all? For instance, did you know (and this I know to absolutely correct) that Hell before AD1400 was always depicted as freezing cold? Apparantly, that didn’t scare people enough, so they changed it to flaming hot after that. the 14th Century is incredibly mad, I believe there were 4 different popes, each excommunicating the followers of the previous one, moving the location of the Holy See from Rome to Avignon and back again. The Church in the Dark ages was more oppressive than any modern regime I know. It served to keep the people poor and ignorant, so they could remain in power. The Catholic Church as an institution is an abomination. The progroms against the Jewsh people were also largely instigated by Catholics (not Christians, not the actual Christian people, but the Church as an institution), as the Church spread the propaganda that the Jewish people crucified Jesus. This is incorrect. As I stated before, Jesus wasn’t very much liked by the then Jewish Priesthood (I hope you will confirm this), but he was even less liked by the Romans. It was the Romans who crucifed Jesus, granted, the Jewish establishment handed him over, but they the Romans hreatened to burn down Jerusalem (again), so what would you have done?
Jesus knew he was going to die, but didn’t run. It fitted in with his plans. He knew if he ever wanted to change anything, he had to become a martyr. I know this is still a very young theory, but it seems to fit.
So to answer your question: why would the Catholic Church be making changes to Jewish Theology: because it wasn’t oppressive enough. Jewish religion places a big emphasis on study and learning, the very thing the Church wanted to get rid of. Because ofcourse learned people will not give you all their money and do as you say 
I will look up the whole thing about people being barred from attending a service. I’m certain I read it somewhere, so please give me time to investigate
thanks
The progroms against the Jewsh people were also largely instigated by Catholics
i mean Pogroms
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OK, I apparently worded my question very badly. Let me rephrase:
Why would Jews change their theology to suit what the Catholic Church wanted? IOW, if the Jews didn’t believe in Hell before the Catholic Church, what authority (in theological terms) would the Cahtolic Church have to tell the Jews to include Hell in their theology that the Jews would then say “OK, since you say so, we now believe that there is a hell.?”
Take your time. I’ll be here waiting to respond.
Zev Steinhardt
that question becomes obsolete as I made the statement abt hell and heaven and afterlife before you corrected me. So i never claimed the Jewish would amend their religion because the catholics said so. I never believed they did, as the timeline is simply wrong for that. First Judaism, then Christianism, and then Islam. I don’t think the NT was amended in any way after the birth of Islam, so to think that happened with Jews vs Christians would be illogical.
Miscommunication on our part, obviously.
I’ll get back to you re the other stuff.
Well, except in Russia, which was Eastern Orthodox.
Unfortunately, your “absolutely correct” knowledge is not.
Now, the word Hell, in English, is taken from the name of the Norse goddess, Hel, ruler of that mythology’s bitterly cold realm of the dead, Helheim (home of hell).
However, in Christian mythology, the notion of the place of punishment after death has always followed the images that Jesus used regarding Gehenna, the place of fire found in the extra-scriptural works such as the Book of Enoch. (Whether the punishment is everlasting or annihilating is a different discussion, but the location was always described as fiery.) In fact, despite Dante imprisoning Satan, along with Judas and Brutus, in ice in his final Circle of the Inferno, (which might be the source of your impression that it was always ice until the 14th century), he still placed a large number of sinners in fiery pits.
Nuance: Some accomodations may be permitted, depending on the branch of Judaism and local tolerances. A blind person cannot be a Torah reader, for the reason Zev gave, but (as best I know) can be called up for a reading and recite the blessings from memory or from a Braille card. (The person honored with a reading is rarely, in my experience, the person who reads from the Torah.) I have been present at services where the honoree used a programmed voice synthesizer to “recite” the blessings. And I think every current prayer book has a large print edition.
Well, the original custom was that the person called up to the Torah actually read from the Torah. Later on, so as to avoid embarrassing those who could not read, a “Reader” was appointed to read for the congregation. However, the person called up to the Torah is supposed to read along with the Reader, and is under the same guidelines as the Reader (i.e. he cannot recite the text by heart, etc.).
However, IIRC, I recall seeing that the custom today is to allow a blind person to be called up to the Torah for an aliyah. However, I will have to check again to be certain.
Zev Steinhardt
Confirmed. According to the Mishnah Brurah, a blind person can be called to the Torah (although he cannot be the Torah reader for the reasons I explained above).
Zev Steinhardt
A question on the afterlife in Judaism:
I am very vague on what it consists of. I know that the issue is not of primary importance in Judaism (as opposed to Christianity and Islam), but I thought that more or less everyone simply awaited (in She’ol?) bodily resurrection when the Messiah finally shows up. That was why old people made provision for their bones to be taken to Jerusalem - the Messiah would show up there first.
Any info on this topic will be welcome. Also, any variation in belief between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform belief would be most illuminating.
Not quite correct. The idea of everyone waiting in a spiritual “waiting room” for the Messiah is not a Jewish concept and, to my knowledge, no branch of Judaism agrees with this concept.
In normative Jewish thought, a person goes to their eternal reward upon death. However, there is a concept of the physical ressurection of the dead in the Messianic era (indeed, it’s one of Maimonides’ 13 Articles of Faith). There is mention that those buried in Israel will be among the first ressurected, and that bodies not buried in Israel will have to travel through underground tunnels to Israel before being ressurected (Don’t ask me about the logistics of it – I don’t know). That’s one reason why many people arrange to be buried in Israel.
Zev Steinhardt
I am still confused. What does this eternal reward consist of? Is there a heaven and hell, of the sort in Christianity or Islam? And how can it be eternal, if you get resurrected?
And where are these issues discussed?
“Eternal reward” was a poor choice of words on my part. Yes, there is a heaven, and yes, there is a hell.
Generally speaking people go to one destination or the other upon death. Heavenly reward lasts forever (see later). Hell (except for the truly wicked – in my mind, we’re talking the “Hitler” types) lasts no more than 12 months.
As I mentioned earlier, the physical ressurection of the dead is a key concept in Judaism. So what happens after ressurection? Good question. There are a number of opinions on the matter. They range from the “and we’ll all live forever” variety to the “ressurrection will only be temporary” and that the ressurected will once again die (right away? many years later? These are all matters that are debated) and people will once again go to their proper places (heaven or hell).
As you mentioned earlier, the primary focus of Judaism is on our conduct in this world. Therefore, while the afterlife is certainly important, it is not a primary focus of the religion, and as such, far more time was spent in the study halls debating issues of tort liability, marriage and divorce law, sacrifical law, etc. than on matters of the afterlife.
Zev Steinhardt
Are these concepts discussed in the scriptures? Or in the Talmud?
I’m curious to know where they originate, as far as authority goes. I have never come across a description of Jewish heaven or hell, but there must be one out there somewhere.
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There are no direct references to the afterlife in the Torah. There are several indirect ones, however. The first that comes to mind is the phrase “and he was gathered unto his people.” This can only be referring to the afterlife and not to physical burial. This phrase was used in reference to Abraham, but he was not buried with his ancestors. It is also used with reference to Aaron, but he was buried alone. Nearly everything I’ve told you is either Talmudic or Midrashic in origin.
There is no authoritative “description” of heaven or hell. What goes on there is open to conjecture (although the fact that the righteous are rewarded and the wicked punished is fairly obvious). As I mentioned earlier, this was not the main topic of study in the ancient study halls.
Zev Steinhardt
Incorrect, unless by “Torah” you were referring only to the Five Books of Moses and not the entire Tanakh. There is at least one direct reference to life after death in the book of Samuel - I Samuel 28, in which Saul has the witch of Endor summon the soul of Samuel.
True. However, I was referring to the specific context in which Malthus was inquiring (i.e. “What’s the afterlike like? Is there a heaven?”) Samuel doesn’t report on these things to Saul. I suppose I should have been more specific.
Zev Steinhardt
From the viewpoint of Reform and Conservative Judaism, beliefs are a lot more varied. I don’t think there is a “party line” as there is in Orthodox Judaism, there is much more individual belief.
The common belief is that God is a God of Justice as well as Mercy, and that there will therefore be perfect Justice and perfect Mercy in any afterlife. However, similarity ends there. The range of beliefs within Reform and Conservative Judaism covers:
(a) There is no heaven or hell, but there will be a physical resurrection of the body in a Messianic Age (those who are evil do not share in this)
(b) There is no heaven or hell, and the Messianic Era is something that mankind will bring about by learning to live as brothers/sisters … with no resurrection or afterlife
© Agreement with the Orthodox beliefs.
Again, this is a matter of belief, there are no canonical texts that spell anything out. It’s mostly trying to reconcile the real world (where justice is not always triumphant) with the ideal world (where justice would be always triumphant).
Putting this all together, I take away from the discussion that there is no really firm scriptural basis for the concepts of “heaven” and “hell” - more of a speculation based on the inherent nature of the Diety, being one of infinite mercy and justice. This speculation may lead to the conclusion that a heaven and hell exists, but not necessarily.
The term “gathered unto his people” sounds somewhat ambiguous to me, as it could be as is reasoned by Zev a reference to the afterlife, but could also be a conventional phrase simply meaning death (as in “he is with the ancestors now”, which may or may not be meant literally).
Actually, I find this form of reasoning more logical than a detailed description of the afterlife - after all, the soul of Saul aside, no-one has actually returned from the dead to describe it (unless one accepts the Christian resurrection of Christ, and he didn’t leave a detailed description in any event). So the best we can do, if believers in a transendental diety, is reason from first principles.