Under the old covenant, Jews were gods chosen people and could get into heaven by sacrificing, etc… (i’m not a theology major, obviously).
Then along came Jesus, who kind of ruins their day.
So, my question is this:
Are Gods chosen people, at least the ones who still refute the idea of Jesus as Savior (not the Messianic Jews), going to hell because they are not saved?
Seems like a cruel twist of fate for God’s own.
I’m not a religious sort of guy, and ChaimKeller will probably come along and give you much more detail, and maybe even correct me (Yahweh forbid). However, this thing about the Jews not going to Heaven is a goyim thing. That’s why they’re trying to convert everyone who doesn’t believe the way they do to convert to their one and only true religion. :rolleyes:
The Jews, however, believe that Heaven is attainable to all who lead a virtuous life and is not restricted to those of the Jewish faith. Hence, the Jews have no need, wish, desire, or urge to convert any one.
Well if you look at the bible there are a few times when everyone among the jews except the faithful are slaugtered. Really from a christan perspective not following jesus is turning your back on god.
That should be “Christian” with a capital “C,” and that’s the point. Yes, the OT says that Yahweh killed non-believers and idol worshipers. But that was not due to “not following jesus,” but not believing in the one God (Yahweh) and praying to false idols. (How’s that for a bunch of negatives in one sentence.) IMHO, in the Jewish religion, Heaven doesn’t depend on what God you believe in, just so it is one God, and all religions base their one God on Yahweh ultimately.
There are a few nutsos among the extreme fundies (as opposed to Fundamentalist Christians of whom the fundies are simply one subset) who do believe that the Jews are damned (along with every other non-fundy in the world).
The majority of Christian denominations hold that the Jews remain the Chosen People of God and that even if they did not “recognize” Jesus and his divinity, God is not going to condemn them.
Jews consider the position of the fundies to be extremely insulting and wrong-headed, of course.
They may find the second position insulting, as well, but that probably depends on how it is expressed. It is the belief in the divinity of Jesus, of course, that is at the core of the Christian heresy from Judaism.
I don’t know if it’s quite that easy to separate out the “fundies” from the Fundamentalists. There was a flap a while back about efforts by Southern Baptists to convert Jews; in response to the controversy, R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote this column in which he says:
It does not sound to me like the theology of Mr. Mohler and others like him has any “escape clause” for Judaism.
Perhaps the group which now dominates the Southern Baptist Convention are “extreme fundies”, but we are talking about the largest Protestant denomination in the United States.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by barbitu8 *
**
Actually, barbitu8, that’s not entirely correct. A gentile could even be polytheistic as long as God is among the gods he worships. For a Jew, of course, this is forbidden.
Zev Steinhardt
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MEBuckner *
**I don’t know if it’s quite that easy to separate out the “fundies” from the Fundamentalists. There was a flap a while back about efforts by Southern Baptists to convert Jews; in response to the controversy, R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote this column in which he says:
Yeah, right. That’s why the Southern Baptists fund Jews for Jesus…because they don’t want us more than anyone else… where’s the local Muslim’s for Jesus chapter again? :rolleyes:
Zev Steinhardt
Well, MEBuckner, my wife’s uncle has said many times that “The Baptists and kudsu will soon take over the south”.
As far as I can tell this argument dates back to when Paul wanted to convert gentiles while Peter and the rest of the gang wanted to keep Christainity among the Jews. It also is not restricted to Christainity. Islam looks on the Jews as the “Chosen People”, but feel that they erred by not following Mohammed.
If there is a hell, then I imagine Jews and any other race, greed, nationality, etc are going there. But then Jews and all the rest will also be going to heaven.
P.S. Why was it pointed out the it should be "C"hristainity and not pointed out that it should be "J"esus?
Henny Youngman used to tell a joke that I like to relate to the topic.
He said this man dies and goes to heaven and God takes him down this long hall and they stop by the first door, open it and look in, and inside are a bunch of happy people drinking wine and beer and singing Irish songs, and Polish songs and Italian songs and dancing and having a great-old time. God looks at the man and says in answer to the look, "Those are the Catholics. They seem to enjoy it up here.
They come to the next door, open it and look in and there are a bunch of happy people, some in yarmulkes and some with their shawls and many are drinking wine and all are singing and dancing and having a wonderful time. “Those are the Jews,” says God. “They are having a good time too.”
The same things happen at other doors with Moslems, Hindus and Unitarians. Then they come to another door and God puts a finger to his lips, obviously telling the other man to be quiet. God takes off his shoes and indicates to the man to do likewise. God then tiptoes past the door and motions the man to do the same. The man is completely puzzled. Finally when they are well past the door God stops and sits on the floor and begins to put on his shoes, and the man takes advantage of the moment to ask God a question, “Why did we do that,” he asks.
“Well,” says God. “That’s the area we have set aside for the Fundamentalist Christians, and they think they are the only ones up here.”
–Now, Jerry Fallwell, Jim Bakker, Jim Robertson and their ilk can say what they want. But as for me, if Henny Youngman says I’ve got a room in heaven, then I believe I’ve got a room in heaven.
TV
**zev_steinhardt wrote:
Actually, barbitu8, that’s not entirely correct. A gentile could even be polytheistic as long as God is among the gods he worships. For a Jew, of course, this is forbidden.**
Well, I don’t “worship” the Jewish God, like making offerings, etc, but I do acknowledge His existence and that’s He’s worthy of respect. Will that get me in? 
The actual commandment that gentiles must follow, Freyr is not a positive commandment (“Thou shalt worship…”) but a negative one. Thus, a gentile is forbidden (according to Jewish law) from engaging in idolatry. However, he is allowed to believe in a “partnership” of God and his local deities. So, as long as you don’t actively worship other gods without including Him as well, you’re OK on that count. You still have, however, the other six commandments to deal with as well…
Zev Steinhardt
Zev Steinhardt
Hopefully, someone will help me with a site here.
In the Bible it says that all God’s people (Jews) will be saved (in a day, it says) at the end of the world.
SO yes, I think they are all going to wind up in Heaven (barring being a horrible murderer or something)
**zev_steinhardt wrote:
Thus, a gentile is forbidden (according to Jewish law) from engaging in idolatry. However, he is allowed to believe in a “partnership” of God and his local deities. So, as long as you don’t actively worship other gods without including Him as well, you’re OK on that count.**
[Marlon Brando voice]So, I gotta business deal for youse! We’re gonna form a partnership heah[/Marlon Brando voice].
You still have, however, the other six commandments to deal with as well…
Which ones? I keep hearing the order is mixed up between Judeism and Christianity.
Freyr: The 11th commandment: Thou shalt not simulpost…
Jews, the original Unitarian-Universalists…
Freyr, you’re confusing the Ten Commanments with the Noahide commandments.
According to Jewish law, the former are only binding on the Jews. The latter are binding on everyone. In short, the seven Noahide commandments are:
Negative commandments
Idolatry
Murder
Forbidden sexual relations (adultery, incest, etc.)
Eating the flesh of a living animal
Cursing God
Theft
Positive commandment
To set up a system of civil laws, courts to enforce those laws and to live by them.
Zev Steinhardt
It does, doesn’t it. If one believes this, I would suggest that it is less important to worry about what might happen to others after death and more important to decide whether a God who would do such a thing is worthy of praise and worship.
And Zev, it’s that darn live animal thing that’s gonna keep me out! Stupid Nobu.
Zev,
I’m going to ask for a site here. If the commandment were positive (“You shall worship G-d”), I can see how that would work. “I do…I worship G-d and other gods”, but the formulation is, like you said, negative (“You shall not worship idols”), so anybody who worshiped both G-d and idols would still be breaking the commandment, right?
**zev_steinhardt wrote:
Freyr, you’re confusing the Ten Commanments with the Noahide commandments.
Forbidden sexual relations (adultery, incest, etc.)**
I’m sure we all know what that “etc.” means. Oh, well, looks like I’m out of luck here. shrug