Exactly which Olympic events should go?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Ivar,

I’m interested in your claim that team handball is the 2nd most played sport after soccer, but before cricket.

I thought the big 3 were soccer, chess (yes, I know people don’t think it’s a sport - see below) and athletics. This is based on the number of countries who compete in the World Championships (but I don’t have a cite to hand :o )

For sure cricket is nowhere - there can’t be more than a dozen countries who play international matches.

RickJay, you said:

‘A sport is a physical contest with defined criteria for victory where victory is the intrinsic purpose of the contest.’

Fair enough, although my dictionary includes in it’s definition of sport ‘…especially outdoors involving physical activity’. Not all sport is outdoors; I don’t think sport has to be physical.

You said:

‘Chess is not a sport; it’s a game. It’s a hell of a game but it’s not a physical contest.’

Again reasonable - my problem is that the word ‘game’ carries connotations of a friendly activity, like charades. I think English needs an equivalent of the German word ‘Denksport’ meaning ‘Mindsport’.
After all, shooting demands fierce concentration and skill, but uses little energy - just like chess!

You said:

‘The fourth criteria the Olympics doesn’t apply is that it has to be objective.’

Absolutely right :cool:

HelloKitty,

Hello back!
You said:

‘But, um, even in the breast stroke races, the fastest swimmer DOES win!!’

I’m sure you know that the fastest BREASTSTROKE swimmer wins. Why the ‘handicap’ of not allowing the better freestyle?

42

I find the list of discontinued sports interesting in that a fair amount of them (and some that are still around) are sports that are traditioanlly upper-class British & American pastimes from that time period - snob sports, if you will.

Polo, badminton, squash and pigeon shooting, for instance.

Diving, on the other hand, could be great if you made them jump off cliffs every time. Always fun to add in that little point about clearing the rocks…

As for Ivar’s comment about team handball being called handball because:

“I mean you play the game with your hands, right?”

Now that we’ve defined half the sports on the planet…

43

I see your point. I’d make it an entirely new word, though. Lots of unused words are available. Let’s call it a “glemp.”

Shooting is a physical skill; chess is not.

Let me put it this way; I have to physically fire my rifle to strike the target. I am expected to do this myself, under the same conditions and using the same weapons as my opponent.

Now, let’s say chess was an Olympic sport. If Stephen Hawking wanted to represent the United Kingdom but he needed assistance moving the peices once he’d decided on a move, would you have a problem with that? I wouldn’t; I’d let him play. Chess is an entirely mental competition; the physical aspect of it (moving the peices and whacking the game clock) is a secondary convenience.

Put another way, chess on a chessboard and chess on the computer screen are the same game. Shooting on a range and shooting things on your computer screen obviously are not.

Because they’re different skills. The world’s greatest sprinters can’t run as fast as the worst cyclist at the Olympics, so why the handicap of not allowing bicycles?

The question is, really, how far you want to subdivide skills. My problem with swimming isn’t having different strokes; my problem is, why is there a 4x200 relay when there’s also a 4x100 relay? How different are they really? Why is there a 200m medley AND a 400m medley? Just have one damned medley.

44

RickJay,

Hey, I’m a glemper!

I agree, chess is essentially a purely mental skill. But would you let Hawking aim a computer-controlled rifle by e.g eye movements? :rolleyes:

I still think breaststroke should go. Two people swimming, but they’re only allowed to swim ‘badly’, is not the same as giving one runner a bicycle.

45

First, I wans’t clear that I was referring to a team sport, but I was. Sorry about the confusion/blanket statement.

Second chess isn’t a freakin’ sport. No physical skills required.

And lastly, in the Asian subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, cricket is the #1 team sport. There’s well over one billion people in those countries together, and they love cricket.
Not to mention much of Africa and the Caribbean, anywhere the Brits colonized. Cricket is huge.

It’s just like baseball here, all you need is a ball, abat and some sticks to make a wicket. heck, they don’t even play with gloves. Very inexpensive to play. (Also explains one aspect of soccer’s popularity in the third world).

46

Ivar,

I see what you mean - I was talking about countries who play and you’re referring to players.

Ok, either statistic is useful.
Wait till China discovers bowling a maiden over!

47

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RickJay *
**

Not making the obvious “They’re x100 different” crack.

Seriously though, does this theory apply to track and field as well? Are you saying we should just cut everything except for the Marathon? I mean it’s all just running, right?

48

Maeglin, Please read Xenophon, “On the Art of Horsemanship” written 360 BC and you will read principles that are applied to this day in modern dressage. I should amend my previous statement, to note that the saddle is a modern (relatively) invention, and the Greeks & Romans rode bareback or with a saddle cloth.

here is one translation:
http://www.horseclick.com/HorseClick-Xenophon.shtm

Collecting the horse in turns, letting the leg hang relaxed with an upright, flexible body posture, even the position of the reins. In other various sections he decribes the use of the modern jointed snaffle bit, alone and in conjunction with a more severe bit (such as the modern Pelham, although what is described by him is much more severe) and training of what is now called the “haute ecole” or “airs above the ground”; controlled rearing and leaping which demonstrate the extremes of collection and release.

Moreover the goal, clearly stated is to create horse which moves forward lightly and without the least resistance to the rider, so that the two act in harmony. This, too is the goal of all modern dressage training.

49

I’m probably a bit late here, but allow me to pipe in that dressage, and other forms of riding are not as purely artistic as you would think. They are also not only based on the talent of the horse, but the relationship between the horse and rider. And anyone who wants to say that riding is not a sport, has never ridden. Even on the low level which I am at (let’s just say I’m not going to be in the Olympics anytime soon) it is a workout. When you ride, you sweat, your muscles burn, and your body is getting excercise. But on top of that, you have to have poise and balance and grace, to keep yourself on the horse. You have to be alert because the tiniest mistake can ruin everything. All in all, equestrian events are most definitely a sport and should be kept in the Olympic games.

50

I want to add this quote and point out that this basic principle is how guys like Monty Roberts are making so much money off of people who think there is a secret to training horses:

Never treat a horse in anger is best teaching and custom for the horse. There is something thoughtless around the anger, so it will often result in something you have to regret.

If a horse is shy of something, and does not want to go near it, one should teach it that there is no reason to be afraid of the thing. Either, which is best, with a stouthearted horse [leading], or oneself has to touch that which seems so terrible and frightening to the horse and then lead the horse close with gentle treatment. People who want to force it with strokes [of the whip], cause him still more anxiousness, because then horses believe, when they receive a hard punishment near such things, that the thing they are afraid of is the reason.

was that a hijack? maybe. If so, sorry.

51

Conditioning is definately involved, especially in the interior and exterior muscles of the thigh, the back and abdominals. People with no muscle tone flop about in the saddle. (If you could only hear my instructor shouting Leg! Leg! Leg! as I gasp for air). Don’t even get me started about the level of fitness necessary to event.

52

And there’s my point. Whether individually or on a team, I
always believed the Olympics glorified human achievement. It should not be about who has the best horse.

In the last Olympics, there was a girl… I can’t recall her name, but the horse was called Nirvana. The horse was either a grade (mixed breed) or else a no-account thoroughbred, I can’t recall which. She bought him for a piddling sum ($200?) when she was 12, trained him herself and brought him to the OLYMPICS when she turned 21. Yes, she went all the way from “backyard pony” to Grand Prix in 9 years. I call that a human achievement.

53

Crunchy frog said: And there’s my point. Whether individually or on a team, I
always believed the Olympics glorified human achievement. It should not be about who has the best horse.

In the last Olympics, there was a girl… I can’t recall her name, but the horse was called Nirvana. The horse was either a grade (mixed breed) or else a no-account thoroughbred, I can’t recall which. She bought him for a piddling sum ($200?) when she was 12, trained him herself and brought him to the OLYMPICS when she turned 21. Yes, she went all the way from “backyard pony” to Grand Prix in 9 years. I call that a human achievement.

54

How about they award the medal to the horse, instead of the rider? That seems most fair, doesn’t it?

55

In the Modern Pentathlon, the competitors have to use an unfamiliar horse, they don’t get to bring their own. One problem with this is that there aren’t a lot of horses that are trained to be able to complete a show jumping course with an unfamiliar rider, so the horses aren’t entirely unfamiliar.

It’s more akin to showing up at a taxi garage and being assigned to cab #48.

Tug of war has a federation and is trying to get back on the Olympic schedule. Don’t hold your breath.

56

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by JDeMobray *
**

I think the litmus test is whether or not they involved different skills.

You know who swims in the 4x200 medley? The same people who swim in the 4x100. Every team won’t be exactly the same because they bring more swimmers than that and they try to mix it up to keep people fresh, but nobody specializes in a 100-metre race instead of a 200-metre race.

In track, people DO specialize. You will get sprinters who do both the 100 and the 200, or the 200 and the 400, and you do get double champions (Carl Lewis, Michael Johnson) but they are, by and large, the rare exception; most sprinters specialize. Donovan Bailey, the defending Olympic champ, hasn’t run a competitive 200 in ten years.

NOBODY runs the 100 and the 400. And cross-sport stuff in track is rare, too; sometimes sprinters will also long jump, but you won’t see the 100m sprinters running the 110 hurdles.

None of that exists in swimming. Ian Thorpe’s in what, 14 events this year? Mark Spitz won seven gold medals in one Olympics and most athletes don’t have seven events they can compete in.

57

hypergirl

Yay!! You read the rest of my muddled thoughts. It's really exhausting after a long time in the saddle, and equestrian is definitely a sport, why else would I pass out from the effort of showing in the required long sleeved jackets in 90+ weather with a heavy velvet cap on top, or my continue to ride through various knee injuries and bruised feet and other pains that ive received over the years. Not to mention all the workouts on the ground ive done to strengthen my legs and arms to help with my riding.

Did you know that sometimes my stomach muscles burn from all the contractions they do with my controlling of the horse? Beats sit ups anyday, but I still do those because Im obsessive like that.

When they did their 10 min segment(which is very impressive for NBC) on the cross country part of the 3 day competition, the TV announcer commented that that type of horseback riding is 6 times more dangerous than automobile racing, among other things.

Long Live Equestrian!!!

58

glee – hey you! :slight_smile: As for walking being a sport: They are not walking in strictly, “get me from here to there” type terms. It’s power walking and I’ve done it. There are women who can walk faster than I can jog at my slower pace. I think that’s pretty cool!

Honestly, I really do see why this is a sport. The rules are very precise and exact. You have to be built for this sport. If you’ll notice, their strides seem very unnatural and jarring due to the rules hence the over accentuated hip movement.

It’s a lot harder than it looks! And I do think it’s a valid sport. Like I said, I’ve tried it and I find that for me, with a long torso and long legs I am built to run, not walk… but I do appreciate the skill these folks have.

But I guess we get into the argument (again! From so many threads) if it’s a skill, sport, game or fill in your own adjective or noun. I guess it depends. I think chess is more of a mental game… should it be included in the Olympics? Why not? But summer or winter? Some would say that’s skill or just a game but… I guess it depends on how you look at it. There is a lot of mental stamina that goes into almost every event so…

I guess, hey, it’s been said before, I’ll say it again, I don’t mind that it’s scrawled on bathroom walls: I’m easy.

If it’s competition, let it in the games. By entry and by spectator interest, we’d quickly find what works and what doesn’t. Hell, not many think curling is a legitimate event nor ballroom dancing and I think they both are. Mainly because I’ve tried them and they are a lot harder than they look… but that’s just me. YOUR results may vary. And the contents may have shifted during shipment and… well… you get what I’m saying.

As far as what ever that sport is with the ladies flinging up balls and playing with streamers; I had never seen it until the 1996 games and I found myself intrigued. Again, it’s a lot harder than they make it look. I think it’s interesting from a style standpoint. Athletic? To a bit, not much, but there is a lot of physics going on… perhaps that is why I like it. But I sure don’t know what it’s called or how you qualify or how it’s judged; I just like watching it!

My best point, over all, is that a lot of sports had to fight long and hard to get in; I always feel that even if “I” can’t see why there must be a reason. I may think they are silly, pointless or downright confusing; but someone, somewhere, worked long and hard to get them included. For that, alone, I must respect them. Case in point. Women fought long and hard to be included. It wasn’t until 1928 (??? I’m not sure if I have that right) that women were ALLOWED to compete so… I’m damn generous. And appreciative.

Frankly, if you just don’t like a sport or don’t “get” it, than don’t watch. For every sport you don’t “get” please try to understand where these athletes are coming from; for them it’s very valid, very real. Let them have their moment. I don’t mind. It hurts me not. I just WISH I could let go of my envy that they are even THERE, representing their country! Sometimes I get so envious that I almost cry!

59

Dear Byzantine (may I call you Byz?),

Excellent stuff!

You said:

‘There are women who can walk faster than I can jog at my slower pace. I think that’s pretty cool!’

Oh, behave! :wink: In the Olympics, we’re talking fastest pace. I want to see flat out racing - almost anyone can jog faster than the best power walker in the world.

You said:

‘Honestly, I really do see why this is a sport…but I guess we get into the argument (again! From so many threads) if it’s a skill, sport, game or fill in your own adjective or noun.’

This is the heart of the problem. We don’t have enough words for the different categories.

Sport implies a physical, competitive activity. So chess becomes just a game (= mere pastime).
As RickyJay said, any Olympic sport should include an objective scoring system.

You said:

‘I guess, hey, it’s been said before, I’ll say it again, I don’t mind that it’s scrawled on bathroom walls: I’m easy.’

Perhaps I shouldn’t have taken that out of context :smiley:

You said:

‘If it’s competition, let it in the games. By entry and by spectator interest, we’d quickly find what works and what doesn’t. Hell, not many think curling is a legitimate event nor ballroom dancing and I think they both are. Mainly because I’ve tried them and they are a lot harder than they look… but that’s just me.’

Ballroom dancing is wonderful - it just doesn’t have an objective scoring system. As other posters have remarked, ice-skating judges sometimes seem to have decided the winners in advance…

You said:

‘But I sure don’t know what it’s called or how you qualify or how it’s judged; I just like watching it!’

Sure, let’s have all that stuff on TV - just don’t call it Olympic sport.

You said:

My best point, over all, is that a lot of sports had to fight long and hard to get in; I always feel that even if “I” can’t see why there must be a reason. I may think they are silly, pointless or downright confusing; but someone, somewhere, worked long and hard to get them included. For that, alone, I must respect them. Case in point. Women fought long and hard to be included. It wasn’t until 1928 (??? I’m not sure if I have that right) that women were ALLOWED to compete so… I’m damn generous. And appreciative.’

I’d trust you as President of the Olympic movement :slight_smile: - I think the present bunch are more interested in money and freebies.
And yes, it was a absolute disgrace that women weren’t allowed in - but that’s not the same as a particular sport or country bribing its way in.

You said:

‘Frankly, if you just don’t like a sport or don’t “get” it, than don’t watch. For every sport you don’t “get” please try to understand where these athletes are coming from; for them it’s very valid, very real. Let them have their moment. I don’t mind. It hurts me not. I just WISH I could let go of my envy that they are even THERE, representing their country! Sometimes I get so envious that I almost cry!’

This shows you are an Olympic-standard poster!

best regards,
glee

60

glee – you can call my Byz but most find that BITCH is just easier… I really don’t know why… :slight_smile:

That’s really my whole point; I can jog along just fine but there are folks who can push that speed WALKING… and there are rules (like one foot on the ground at all times) that apply to them and not me. I could not jog at a pace with those rules; it’s a different sport.

And subjective vs. objective… that sums up gymnastics as a whole; it is a totally subjective sport; do I find it less valuable because of this? No, I do not. It still has value. It is not objective, it never can or will be… but I think it has value as an Olympic sport.

If ANY sport or even women were “bribed” in I’d be crushed emotionally; that is not in the spirt of the games but I would want you to provide examples where that was the norm. Women were not allowed into the games by bribes… show me ANY game that made it in by bribes, let alone women…

I’m not putting you down but still… a game got recognized by bribe? I know SLC got the 2002 games by basically bribing the SHIT out of everyone… but I still don’t think we were the first to do so; I just think we were the first to be caught…

Anyway, best to you, and my VERY best to all competitors in these Olympics!
Byz