Examples of false friends in different languages, including Brit/US English?

[Nava]

@vontsira

Any thoughts on the matter, from folk here acquainted with Spanish-speaking countries (including metropolitan Spain) would be received with interest.

Metropolitan Spain, limón is lemon and lima is lime; limonada natural is made with lemon and water (sugar optional, and if so just enough to take the worst bite off), limonada as a soda is the one that’s yellow and acidic. I already knew before leaving the country that in other places it can be made with limes and that there’s places where the term can mean other kinds of “watered down cold juice” (such as that one with lime and coconut Leo Bloom mentioned) or of soda, but I can’t remember when or where did I learn that. My guess is that it’s more likely to be made with whichever is more available locally: here, limes are exotic and coconut is reserved for slices at the fairground or for cake decorations, whereas orange and lemon trees are found in any area that’s not too wet for them (so, most of the country).

Out of curiosity I’ve checked RAE: their definitions talk about limones having yellow skin and flesh, with limas having yellow skin and green flesh. No indication of regional variations. For limonada, they say “(adj.) lemon colored” and “(noun) a drink made from water, sugar and lemon juice” - I guess the soda is supposed to fall under the first definition, and the second one depends on which fruit do you call what.

[KarlGrenze]

I grew up in a place where yea, limón is what it is called lime, and lima is what is called lemon. If I remember correctly, this was also brought up years ago in a discussion about removing bias in tests like SATs and others, where this would be something that could cause confusion in such a test.

My grandpa had a lime tree (limonero, though now it should be a limero?). So we had small limones, definitely green flesh. Green skin if new, yellow skin when mature.

So for me, in Puerto Rico, it was reversed (despite what the RAE says). I will check with the website for the local Academia, as sometimes they have more information on regionalisms than what’s on the RAE.

[vontsira]

@Floater

I was once asked by a Scottish friend if I really did understand what T. from Elgin was saying as she didn’t. The thing is that M., who is from Glasgow, also has a very heavy accent, so I, who is not a native speaker, had to concentrate hard on understanding both of them.

Yes, the Scots and what they (in various parts, and various ways) do to the English language… some years ago, I shared accommodation for a couple of months, with a young working-class guy from the coastal area south of Glasgow. I admit that I’m not good with accents other than the Queen’s English – with this chap, truly for 80 or 90% of the time, he could have been talking in Idiomatic Crashbanian, for all I understood of what he was saying.

[Derc]

@vontsira

Have just noticed this post. I learned of these words on holiday a good many years ago – in a different part of Scotland, but my landlady was from the north-east. She elaborated that the standard greeting in those parts, is “Fit like, loon / quine?” I at first parsed that as meaning “[Are you feeling] fit [and well], like?”; but she explained that actual significance is, “What (=‘fit’) [is life ] like [for you today]?”

I do gather that the speech of folk in rural north-east Scotland, is English, but of a kind hardly recognisable or comprehensible to anyone else in the Anglosphere !

Having enjoyed a good ‘Hogmanay’ New Years Eve we attend the South Queensferry, (close to Edinburgh) dip in the sea, to sober up, the loonies, that dive in are termed so, meaning affectionately crazy, dook means taking a dip.

http://www.theloonydook.co.uk/

[JKellyMap]

@Nava

Metropolitan Spain, limón is lemon and lima is lime;
Out of curiosity I’ve checked RAE: their definitions talk about limones having yellow skin and flesh, with limas having yellow skin and green flesh. No indication of regional variations. .

Yet again, RAE is out of touch with Latin America. In Mexico, a limón is a lime – small and green. A lima is a lemon – big and yellow – but they’re pretty rare.

ETA: What KarlGrenze said!

[Floater]

@Derc

… dook means taking a dip.

I can feel the smell of a false friend. “Dook” probably corresponds to Swedish “dyka”, which means “dive”.

[Leo_Bloom]

First: RAE I’m guessing a Spanish OED thing?

Second:

I recently was stopped in the street by a white, young, well-dressed couple, who asked me something, and I thought I heard the word “restaurant.” I love languages, so I asked them to repeat it, either so I could get the language and respond in it, or to get the accent, the people being obviously European of some sort.

The girl blasts me again, I look at the guy, and just give them my iPhone to do a search. I ask, slowly, what language they were speaking, and the guy says English, we’re from Scotland, with a why-do-you-ask expression. I was exhilaratingly flabbergasted–are my ears deceiving me? Are these guys taking the piss :), as some people say? She lets go with another blast, and I have to look at the guy helplessly. Three interchanges in a row, and still all I hear is a stream of modulated sound.

It was the strangest, strangest thing. I’m mad that I forgot to ask from what city they were.

Twice before I’ve asked a couple who i heard out of the corner of an ear what language they’re speaking, and it was English. I was embarrassed but immediately heard their heavy accent (in each case they were native-born Americans) and it was just plain English from then on.

I think the movie Trainspotting had subtitles here and there after popular demand called for it. Did it in England?

I’ve read on the net people from Britain asking for subtitles in the opening monologue in heavy, natural Texas accent (although I dont know which region of Texas) in the movie No Country for Old Men. (Which actually stars a Scottish actress, coincidentally.)

[Acsenray]

@Leo_Bloom

First: RAE I’m guessing a Spanish OED thing?

It’s the Royal Spanish Academy. It rules on proper usage of the Spanish language. It’s not the equivalent of the Oxford English Dictionary, which has no authority over usage. We have nothing like it for English.

[bordelond]

Just learned of these two recently:

• Danish “foregive” suggests English “forgive”. It’s actually the Danish infinitive verb corresponding with English “to pretend”.

• Dutch “rustig” suggests English “rusty”, but actually means “quiet”.

[Leo_Bloom]

Here’s a thread curve ball: Non-verbal sonic false friends. And in this case a triple one.

In certain distinct situations, people snap their tongue off of upper forward palate as a complete semantic unit. The sound, when done twice, is perversely onomatopoeia-ized in English as “tsk-tsk,” which when vocalized in pairs or threes means “naughty-naughty.”

In Yiddish, when done in pairs or in threes, it means “how horrible” or “what a shame” when one is told of someone else’s illness or other serious misfortune.

When done once in US English–don’t know about elsewhere–it means “what you just said was ridiculously stupid and doesn’t even deserve me finding words to express that.”

In Israel, on the other hand–probably for first-language Arabic speakers also–it just means “no.”

It’s very annoying and you want to slap people sometimes until you get the hang of it.

[vontsira]

@JKellyMap

Yet again, RAE is out of touch with Latin America. In Mexico, a limón is a lime – small and green. A lima is a lemon – big and yellow – but they’re pretty rare.

ETA: What KarlGrenze said!

Thanks all, for information about limes / lemons in Spanish. One of the posters in the discussion on the other board which I mentioned, was a US citizen living in Mexico City. JKellyMap, her info re Mexico parallels yours, but plus some elaboration. Per this lady, in Mexico City, limon (sorry, I’m not equipped to do accents) = small green lime-type job – the fruit or its juice, equally usable in recipes which called for lime, or lemon. lima = a fruit unfamiliar to her from the US: bigger than a ‘limon’, smaller than a ‘regular’ yellow lemon, palish green in colour, and sweet enough to eat “as is”. Re ‘regular’ yellow lemons, she concurs with you: not to be had in Mexico City except in a few shops which went in for imported fruits.

[TheSeaOtter]

@Eliahna

It goes without saying that it made me uncomfortable when Div said he rooted my phone for me, and I resort to the American pronunciation of router so I don’t have to call the thing a “rooter” all day long.

Given how much trouble routers cause, this is making me seriously consider making ‘rooter’ my standard pronunciation.

[Leo_Bloom]

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

Likewise, when I first started learning German I was taught that gehen = “to go”, or “to walk”; but when years later I spent a university year in Göttingen I noticed the same thing you describe. Nearly everyone I met used laufen to mean “to walk”, and this was much easier for us English native speakers, since we’re used to having different words for “to go” and “to walk”. Not long after that, I learned that the Dutch word lopen also means “to walk”, although to lope in English, presumably related to or borrowed from the Dutch word, has a somewhat different meaning. Be that as it may, we had a lot of North Germans in Göttingen, which led me to assume that using laufen for “walk” was a Platt/northern thing.

@Mops

Three examples from the part of South German that I (a North German) have been transplanted to:

Fuß n. (standard German) = foot; Fuß n. (Swabian) = leg;
laufen vi. (standard German) = to run; laufen vi. (Swabian) = to walk;
schaffen vt. (standard German) = to achieve sth.; schaffen vi. (Swabian) = to work;

@Floater

Hmm, Swedish has borrowed a large part of its vocabulary from Plattdeutch and here it means to run. On the other hand it can have changed meaning in Northern Germany after it was exported.

I first learned it as more or less what brothers do joyfully on their path toward the sanctuary of joy, like a hero towards victory.

Honestly, I learned it from Schiller/Beethoven first, and took it from there.

[Nava]

RAE aren’t just out of touch with Latin America - there’s lots of Spanish regionalisms and terms which people think are archaic or regional but which are not, which either don’t appear or are misspelled (:smack:) but it’s the official reference.

RAE’s webpage contains both a dictionary which in theory comes from the work of the 22 Academies that form ASALE (the Association of Academies of the Spanish Language) and a “Dictionary of Doubts” which is supposed to help solve this kind of dialectal problems; the DoD doesn’t have either lima or limón. So far, it’s never had a word I looked up in it… for such a thick book it sure seems to contain a lot of blanks.
ETA: don’t trust the size when it comes to limas and limones; both vary a lot in size, from smaller than a small hen’s egg to bigger than a woman’s fist.

[vontsira]

@Nava

ETA: don’t trust the size when it comes to limas and limones; both vary a lot in size, from smaller than a small hen’s egg to bigger than a woman’s fist.

Seems that in the UK, we may be boringly standardised as regards lime and lemon sizes. The former here, seem universally the size of an average hen’s egg; the latter, rather bigger (size of a duck’s or turkey’s egg, maybe?).

[Nava]

I went and checked the 22 links from ASALE’s page.

TLDR: the only ones which give a definition for lima or limón different from DRAE are the mexicans, who explain very specifically that their green limones must not be confused either with Spanish limones or with English-speaking lemons, both of which are yellow.

DRAE: Diccionario de la Real Academia Española. The last paper version is from 2001 (oy vei); the online search provides the information from that edition as well as modifications it’s undergone since.
DPD: Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas. Designed to help solve questions about dialectal differences in vocabulary, grammar, spelling…

Academia Colombiana de la Lengua: apparently, no webpage.
Academia Ecuatoriana de la Lengua: same.
Academia Mexicana de la Lengua: searching for lima or limón links to DRAE. Under the Diccionario breve de mexicanismos (short dictionary of Mexican words), lima is not defined but there is a sentence about them, limón explains that “it is a tree with the scientific name Citrus arantifolia and its acidic greenish fruit; it must not be confused with the fruit called lemon in English (Citrus limon), which is yellow, or with what’s called limón in Spain, which is yellow as well”.
Academia Salvadoreña de la Lengua: provides links to several dictionaries - all of which are rae addresses.
Academia Venezolana de la Lengua: takes forever to open. Their search function doesn’t find either lima or limón. Their “dictionaries” section links to DRAE, DPD, Word Reference and Spanish newspaper El Mundo (whose monolingual dictionary is, again, DRAE).
Academia Chilena de la Lengua: no search function, no online dictionaries.
Academia Peruana de la Lengua: their wordsearch has a lot of sections but it doesn’t find either lima or limón. They have links to DRAE, DPD and other works of reference, rae address. They are working on a Diccionario de Peruanismos (Dictionary of Peruvian words) for which they request contributions from people (any Peruvian Dopers?), but so far the part published on the website has reached cebiche; we have a ways to go until we can use limones to make our cebiche.
Academia Guatemalteca de la Lengua: they have a link to DRAE.
Academia Costarricense de la Lengua: their search function doesn’t search for exact matches, it hasn’t turned up definitions for either term but it has told me that* limonense* is a person from the town of Limón. They have a Diccionario de Costarriqueñismos but it’s from 1919 - I do think it may need to be updated.
Academia Filipina de la Lengua Española: apparently, no webpage.
Academia Panameña de la Lengua: This one has music and a search function with error messages in English. Neither lima nor limón can be found.
Academia Cubana de la Lengua: under Dictionaries, you can download or search online the Dictionary of Doubts (the pdf corresponds to a “work in progress” document from 2004).
Academia Paraguaya de la Lengua Española: no searchable dictionaries.
Academia Boliviana de la Lengua: no searchable dictionaries. Under Uso del idioma/Bolivianismos, a selection of words marked as “specific of Bolivia” in ASALE’s Diccionario de Americanismos (Dictionary of words used in America), published by Editorial Santillana in 2010.
Academia Dominicana de la Lengua: links to several other Academies and to several dictionaries, as well as to Dominican terms taken from DPD. They are preparing a dictionary of Dominican words which in theory should be out this year.
Academia Nicaragüense de la Lengua: apparently, no webpage.
Academia Argentina de Letras: no search function. I haven’t found any dictionaries, but their link to “published works” is down for maintenance, they might be there.
Academia Nacional de Letras de Uruguay: no dictionaries.
Academia Hondureña de la Lengua: apparently, no webpage.
Academia Puertorriqueña de la Lengua Española: their search function is for documents, not the dictionary. They have links to DRAE and to DPD.
Academia Norteamericana de la Lengua Española: the only page which has those little buttons to change font size. Links to DRAE and DPD.

Orange Prizes to the Mexicans for the Dictionary of Mexican Words and to the Americans for being accesible (or at least, more accesible than the rest).

[KarlGrenze]

Thanks, Nava. Yes, usually the main dictionary at the RAE website is pretty complete, but it seems it lags a lot when it comes to regionalisms. It has some, but it lacks others. I know because I’ve searched and asked by email to the local Academy (Puertorriqueña), and gotten answer from them that were not present in the RAE.

It seems the Diccionario de dudas is more concerned about pronunciation changes. So far, it is very thorough in regards to pronunciation, conjugation, and grammar, but not so much with regionalisms.

[JKellyMap]

Thanks for the research, Nava. Interesting stuff.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea of an “official reference,” though. Everything I have learned about language (admittedly, as an amateur enthusiast) de-emphasizes the role of such a thing, except as a historical document like any other.

Certainly, though, it’s a useful reference, as you have demonstrated.

[Leo_Bloom]

Nava, thanks for all great work you did.

Also:
“Dictionary of Doubts”–pure Borges.

[KarlGrenze]

No, I get what Nava says about it being the official resource. The books published by the RAE and all the Academies are the official "these are the words in the language, how they are spelled, pronounced and catalogued ", and “these are the right pronunciations”, and “this is the right way to write”.

It means, if the Academies say “this is acceptable, and this is what is not, and this is how it happened”, it puts an end to a lot of language arguments and doubts. It’s not official in the sense that they’ll follow you or chastise you, but you can bet that most serious publications will want to comply with the standards (else, they won’t be taken seriously).