Thread How do I go about getting excommunicated? - The Straight Dope
In the context, this phrase has some -err- connotations; was it deliberate?
After all, it was an abbot under Pope Innocent III who spoke the original version of the catchphrase which gained popularity among the soldiers in Viet Nam.
“Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius” or “Kill them all. God will know his own.”
:eek:
No clue, but I’m inclined to think so. Both Cecil and Ed (as editor) tend to be very very thoughtful about wording.
Regarding the officiating of ones renouncing of Catholicism
first some links:
this covers:
-the introduction of a canonically recognised system of renouncing ones status from 1983 to 2009
-methods some have employed in order to make their renounciation public after the abolition of the canonical recognition of formaly leaving in 2009
-a good source bibliography for further cross referencing on the subject.
The answer given by Cecil doesn’t include this, so i think the above information, which should of course be cross checked, is highly relevant and should be included.
As of 2009, depending on you reasons for leaving the catholic church there are a few ways you could deal with it.
1)From a legal point of view: There are laws around the world, to numerous to mention here, which may alter the way a case is handled in court. This entirely depends on the country you are in and the nature of the case. It would be pointless to try to make an exhaustive list of requirements to legally prove that you are not a catholic. Suffice to say, something in writing, witnessed and counter signed by a legal firm, with copies sent to which ever officiating bodies or organizations with whom the sender was previously affiliated, ought to be sufficient. It is worth noting that in some cases it is not sufficient! This has come into play in legal cases where a person attempting to denounce catholicism in order to have an abortion peformed in another country has been effectively detained in order to prevent them from doing so.
To personally express an opinion. Do the above and then blog about it. Perhaps send the story to a local paper, or other news source, so that people are aware that you have taken such measures.
Religious reasons. If someone joins another religious organization, it may be required of that person, thay they formally denounce association with another religious body. I quote as an example the book, “Organized to Do Jehovah’s Will”, which is a book outlining the requirements of a member of the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses. As a subset of requirement for those considering baptism, the book asks both the person to be baptised and tose doing the baptizing to ask: “Has he definitely broken off membership in all false religious organizations with which he may have been affiliated, and has he ceased attending their meetings and supporting or sharing in their activities?”. In such a case a person may feel compelled to formally write to notify an organization of their membership withdrawal. In this case as a devotee of another religion, it is probably best to consult with the organizers of the new religion on the subject of how to handle it.
With a view to the article’s wording. Once the elephant in the room has been addressed, it is not worth harking on it for too long when the subject matter at hand is left waiting. The original question clearly misused the word “excommunication” because not many people, including the person who asked the question,would know the correct terminology for voluntarily withdrawing from the catholic church, which is, “actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica”. However it was quite clear what he meant. This should have been quickly established, had a simple term applied to it and then explaned using the best currently available material. All that stuff about how he didn’t understand this that and the other, only served to capatilize on his misuse of a term and did nothing particularly useful by way of enlightening the reader.
finally,
There are also websites which keep lists of people who have denounced Catholicism. They do not operate under any official capacity, however it is worth noting that the catholic church does excommunicate people whose names it finds on them.
Why? The question clearly asked about ex-comunication. The answer answered the question. Why is it so hard to believe that somebody might be interested in being ex-comunicated?
I get this in the technical areas all the time. You ask a question, and a bunch of people tell you that they would much rather answer a different question instead. Well, thanks but no thanks.
did it?
“I’m one very disgruntled and estranged member of the Catholic church — so disgruntled, in fact, that I really don’t want to be counted as a member”
This doesn’t sound like excommunication. This sounds like he wants to voluntarily leave.
“I assume it’s not as simple as writing a letter (though this probably only means the church is more bureaucratic than most mail-order CD clubs).”
He’s already considered writing a letter, hardly a heretical notion. It does not sound like he is pursuing the place in the inferno, which excommunication bestows, according to the catholic church.
“How can I make my intentions known to the right offices?”
His intentions being to leave, as he previously stated.
He’s obviously misapplied the word excommunication, Cecil knew this and made the fact that he knew it quite clear in his reply. We could await a reply from the OP, but I’m quite sure he’d say the same thing.
My criticism of the reply stands and I hope it is taken in good spirit. My first and more important criticism was of the omission of the information I supplied, which I believe may have been useful to others who are researching the issue.
ehamb, your Irish Times link didn’t go through.
I find this particularly dubious…
it’s a pretty popular story. You can just google it. The Irish times is not a free publication it seems, but if you google the words in the link you get a lot of reprints.
What is dubious? the fact that the catholic church does this, or that my citing of it is spurious? Again, google it. The burden of proof does not rest on my shoulders, does it? I just came here with a bit of info I thought may be relevant because I enjoy reading the site and welcome the opportunity to join in.
Have a good weekend all!
-E
It’s your claim, so if it is so widely known you should have no problem finding a source, right?
That’s basically correct yes.
Some source material. Please note: I, as a member of a discussion board repeat, I am merely contributing readily available information I believe to be relevant. Please take it or leave it such. It is my personal opinion that inclusion of a selection of this information could serve to add clarity to the original straightdope article.
Many thanks,
-E
http://www.countmeout.ie/how/ instructions on declaring/notarizing defection. This site is based in Ireland, but there are others. None are considered official, but membership on such lists could incur (and for some has incured) the below:
“Can. 1369 A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty.”
worth reading cross references to clarify the term ‘just penalty’
The wikipedia article on countmeout, just incase it is now defunct or has changed tack since it was last in operation:
media, other, misc:
examples of people trying to employ the methods prescribed by countmeout
http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2524
automatic/arbitrary incursion of excommunication
http://www.countmeout.ie/update200711.php
http://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/apostasy-source-wikipedia/1118134197?ean=9781156709221
please note also. It’s difficult for me to open many of these links as I’m in China, so I haven’t had the chance to check them all. Should be enough keywords and points for anyone who is interested in making a start though.
Cheers again.
You can get excommunicated for nun-napping.
That can’t be right, first of all you’d have to be a nun and secondly, why shouldn’t they take the occasional nap just like the rest of us.
I’m confused by this whole thread. Why bother. If you don’t want to be a Catholic, stop being a Catholic. I’m sure after your membership card expires, they take you off any mailing lists.
Seriously, I know Jews who have converted, and never bother to tell anyone about it. I know Baptists who became Hindu and didn’t think of telling anyone. Even Mormons who convert to other religions or just lapse don’t bother to let their central Church know – and they do keep membership lists!
Why is Catholicism so different? Why do so many Catholics not merely leave the faith, but really insist on letting the entire world know? Even with the latest sex scandals the government is not going to round of ordinary Catholics under the RICO act. There’s no reason you have to prove that you’re no longer a Catholic. As Cecil said, there’s no central membership list, and they’re not going to call you at dinner asking you to renew.
So, what drives former Catholics to insist that they’re not simply going to stop showing up in Church, or even start showing up in another Church, or take a vow of fidelity to another god or set of gods, but to insist there has to be an official recognition from their former Church that they are no longer part of the flock?
I know a lot of people from a lot of other religions who have fallen by the wayside or moved to another religion, but I only know Catholics who seem so insistent on an official break.
Yeah, but you have to admit, the ceremony is awesome!
(the scene from the movie Becket.)
I think in many cases it is a matter of principle, particularly if they feel the church as a whole has committed serious wrongdoing, as many people feel these days. If someone does not want to have anything to do with an organization (any organization), then for that organization to say “you still belong to us even though you’ve been naughty” is rather insulting.
This is even more the case if the organization continues to count you as a member when compiling statistics for the government (I can’t give cites because it’s only what I’ve heard; if it is never the case anywhere that the Catholic church includes people who have actively broken their relationship with the church then I am happy to be corrected).
You misapprehend what nun-napping is. My Irish great-great-grandfather was excommunicated for this. He had already pretty much left the church, and was married to my Jewish great-great-grandmother, whose own family disinherited her for marrying a goy. The church still took the step of formal excommunication.
It’s a big deal for Catholics, because if you die without having recently made confession or received communion (I think it’s in the past either one or two years), you automatically go to hell. An ex-communicant can’t receive sacraments, and so is basically being thrown into hell.
You are assumed to have automatically gone to Hell. It’s not the same thing.
You are assuming Hell exists.
I live in New Jersey: Hell exists. Case closed!
One of the things you notice is that all of the toll bridges between New Jersey and other states have one way tolls. You only pay when you exit New Jersey. You want to come to New Jersey for a visit, it’s free! If you want to leave, it’ll cost ya.