It makes no sense at all to have a death penalty for both rape and murder.
If the penalties are the same, simple logic dictates that you leave behind a dead rape victim and not a live one that can testify against you.
A death penalty for rape means more dead rape victims, not living ones. It can’t be reasonably supported by death penalty supporters for that reason.
You are assuming that rapists and murderers are logical?
I’m not mocking. I’m pointing out that one plank of the argument favored by death penalty advocates was that no factually innocent person has been executed, and that this claim is dramatically weakened by the story mentioned in the OP.
I agree that being pro-death-penalty is a position a reasonable person may adopt. Obviously, I don’t agree with the actual merits of the position, and my argument against adopting it have been strengthened.
You haven’t been paying attention, have you? The pile-on is *not * for his/their support of DP, but for confidence that errors either can’t be made at all or are so rare as to be discountable. It has nothing to do with liberalism and everything to do with realism.
That only enters into the reasoning process if you think you might get caught. Does that possibility really occur to many criminals? Is the nature of the penalty for a crime a deterrent to someone who is confident they’ll get away with it anyway?
Moto, even if we are dealing with a logical murder/rapist, I still fail to see how killing your rape victim is logical. Aren’t most rape trial defenses built around the sex being consentual? Once you’ve killed the victim, that goes out the window. Plus, just because there is a possibility for DP for rape as well as murder doesn’t mean that all rapists will be executed, just like not all murderers are now. But, by committing both crimes, a criminal would certainly be putting himself into more trouble, not less.
But he didn’t shoot a cop, he shot someone who had a gun (two guns in fact). The guy he shot was not in uniform, and was playing pool in a bar. It was only later that he was discovered to be a cop. He was not prosecuted for shooting him, because the evidence against him was “tainted,” which is just as worrying.
I hate to see any innocent person killed, but come on here…everyone seems to be taking the word of an admited liar who took 13 years to come clean. The guy may be innocent, but I wouldnt take Juan Moreno’s word on that.
I want to see a bit more detail here. Lets see the court records, the interrogation records, anything besides this asshats (and I call any person who would fasly convict someone to the DP, then wait 13 yrs to admit he lied, a asshat) word.
It is funny, in a sad way, how without any real shred of evidence (at least not in the article) everyone jumps over the DA and the Police for “forcing” a conviction, and an abuse of power.
:rolleyes:
Shodan’s statements that no executed criminals since the 70’s have been found innocent rings true to me. At least, nobody has cited an example otherwise so far. He’s getting piled on for making a factual statement.
Besides, even if this case from this OP was to be used to break Shodan’s statement, it’s certainly not a reason to attack him. It was true when he said it, he cannot be held responsible if his statement is proven wrong later, after he made it.
Finally, I think everyone on both sides of the issue would admit that errors are rare. Whether or not they are so rare as to be discountable is up to everyone to decide for themselves. To you and I they are not. To Shodan and others they are. So what? It’s entirely reasonable to be on either side of this issue. As long as everyone is taking a reasonable position and arguing in good faith what they believe then they don’t deserve to be attacked just for having an opinion.
Ya, right. So, if Shodan posted his pro-death penalty views on a conservative message board the response would be the same?
Being pro-death penalty is an unpopular position to take on the SDMB. If anything this is even more reason to be careful that our rhetoric doesn’t go too far, not a license to attack the minority with impunity just because we’ve got the numbers on our side. That’s all I’m saying.
Just found this in today’s paper.
Thought Gus might enjoy it.
Not quite the same thing. He said that he was confident that it happened, not that it couldn’t ever have occurred. A subtle difference, but an important one. You can be confident about something without being 100% sure.
And, as Debaser pointed out, the executed party’s innocence has not yet been established. Without knowing what the rest of the evidence entailed, it’s premature to say that he was definitely innocent.
What percentage of confidence is acceptable when you’re sentencing a person to die for a crime? Is there such a number? I don’t believe so.
I’m confident (hell, I’m 100% sure) that I don’t want to be the person executed for a crime I didn’t do. Until that doubt can be eliminated from the system, the practice should be abolished.
You don’t even pay attention to your own posts, do you? You complained that he was being piled on for supporting the death penalty, period. 'Tain’t so. Now deal with it.
Nope. The one serious study, by the Northwestern U. law class of Illinois’ system, found them to be so common that the governor felt compelled to order a blanket moratorium. Other serious studies haven’t been made because they depend on a large amount of committed volunteer labor.
Not in the face of the facts we do have, it isn’t.
Depends on how devoted to Fighting Ignorance that board is, of course. Know of any that compare to this one?
I do understand your frustration over not being able to revert to your reflexively-standard “The liberals are picking on us again” argument, but so it is.
No. Not necessarily.
There are three basic defenses to the charge of rape. Sadly, I can ennumerate them in my sleep:
[ul]
[li]The sex never happened[/li][li]It happened, but it was consensual[/li][li]It happened, it wasn’t consensual, but the rapist wasn’t the accused[/li][/ul]
(We used to called the third option the SODDI defense: Some Other Dude Did It.)
If forensic and physical evidence are iffy, then the first defense is available. If physical evidence shows injuries, but there’s no forensic evidence tying the accused to the crime, then SODDI. And if the forensic evidence ties your guy to it, then it was consensual (and if there were injuries, then they consentually engaged in rough sex).
And of course, physical evidence and a complaining witness are both magically absent when a body goes missing.
Watch this happen more if the penalty for rape and murder are the same. Might as well - you’ll be punished the same way if you’re caught anyway. Makes sense then to elude capture, and produce a dead victim.
That’s not a reasonable application of the law.
GusNSpot, I am very sorry for what your family went through.
However, I believe your second illustration proves the point. This judge that was so incompetant he let your sister’s stalker and rapist go free-would you want that man in charge of who lives and who dies?
Second, how would you feel if your daughter’s killer was caught, tried, and executed. Then, a few years down the road, you find out they nabbed the wrong guy, killed him, and now your daughter’s killer is still walking free, while an innocent man died for his crimes? That would be okay with you?
Hell, by your logic, we ought to just allow the victims’ families to be on the jury.
If you guys would climb off your agendas for a minute and read what is written.
Daniel, if my remaining son were to be absolutely 100% a brutal rapist and killer, then he gets the DP with no complaint from me about the actual punishment because I do support the idea of the DP.
You all keep on about the DP and that is not the problem, it is the people who are running the system. Who decides that an iffy case is a DP deal or not, lawyers do. With malice of forethought when they know that is it not cut and dried. If not cut and dried, then no DP. I can understand that. I will support that. It always comes down to the people who are in charge, and in the criminal justice system all that I have seen, it is not showing them in a very good light.
I can kill in self defense but society can’t carry that out? Disagree.
The cry of “Even one mistake is not worth it.” Do you really want to live where that is really enforced? So get the Supremes to decide that and then live or die with it.
I don’t give a rat about the actual person who is the subject of the OP because that one mistake, if it really was, is where all the untested virtue jumps from.
I don’t have to have the DP for my daughters murderer, I just need to have something done. We have gotten so far from justice and so far into law that there is very little of either.
I also go off on all the “can’t have victims in the mix because they are too emotional.” That is as much a blanket statement as that the DP is totally bad. Makes the phony sympathy all crocodile tears and shows, IMO, that you will prolly never really understand what the real world is … You want 100% perfection because you might be a victim of a corrupt system. It is corrupt because of the people in it, not in and of itself.
Want to yell about something? Look at the unsolved murder cases. Society gets one DP out of how many wrong? And then lets how many go by out of laziness and lack of citizen involvement? Lack of willingness to support adequate policing. Lack of willingness to get involved.
Untested virtue is meaningless. Always will be.
If the punishment for murder and for rape were the same, your sister might well not be alive today. I feel very sorry for what she’s gone through, but I still don’t support the DP.
And before you jump on me about some silly “video,” or ask “what dues I’ve paid the system,” yes, I have been sexually assaulted on more than one occasion by the same person. And the reason that I didn’t do anything about it was because I was 4 years old at the time.
This is Duhbya we’re talking about here. I don’t think he’s ever 100% sure about anything and if he is he’d never say so publicly. 'Tis the nature of politicians.
I meant to say I would not support the DP for the person who did this thing to me.
Yep, that is a good one and your glee in pointing it out is noted. Now you will do the same as she did… right? Okay, glad to know it.
I also know a man that says that he will stand and watch his children murdered and will not lift a hand because he is against violence. His children do get a vote in this. This is the camp you are in? Okay…
If that is the case, then I don’t think society has the right to prosecute a person that kills his kids. If the parents will not defend, they have no right to expect others to do it for them. That is the top of the refusing to be responsible anything mountain IMO.
YMMV and obviously does.