But yes, at least according to the reports and interviews I’ve heard there appears to have been some skulduggery in some districts, with one precinct returning 102% of registered voters and opposition observers physically removed from polling places and excluded from the vote counting in some areas (according to an opposition senator on the Today programme this morning).
There’s also a story going around that Yuschenko was poisoned (resulting in his current pock-marked appearance), although the other side dismisses this as a case of food poisoning.
Another ‘fuck off’ to KidCharlemagne and Dead Badger for putting words into every one else’s mouths. Just about nobody west of Kiev considered the result to be genuine, and that was the case long before America made a sound.
A few days ago I heard an interview with one seasoned electoral-fraud expert, who said he was astonished not only at the scale of the fraud, but also the imagination of the fraudsters - including acid being poured into ballot boxes and vanishing ink supplied to polling stations.
Canada had a couple of parliamentary observers - one from the Liberals, one from the Conservatives - they both reported eyewitnessing fraud, though not of the imaginative type - more boring, like having duplicate ballot boxes to substitute for the official ones.
Pitting America for objecting the the validity of this election is silly, as unless there is some sort of widespread conspiracy among many independant observers, it seems to be pretty certain that the election was a fraud.
[Indeed, some of the Russiophiles I know don’t even dispute it - they simply say that the other guy is just as corrupt, so why all the complaining?]
Whoa, whoa, whoa, there; please don’t lump me in with KidCharlemagne and his “every leftist thinks this” bullshit. I’m well aware that the vast majority of sane folk of either political stripe do indeed consider that the election was highly fraudulent. Indeed, my whole point was that anyone conversant with the facts would do so, and I was simply bemoaning the fact that some people, like the OP and ElvisL1ves, are apparently capable only of viewing the poll through a partisan US filter. If you do not do so, and you clearly don’t, then please don’t assume that I am talking about you. I’m not sure whose mouth you think I’m putting words into, but I assure you, my ire is reserved solely for those people who are actually talking as described.
I was denouncing manhattan for doing exactly that, not doing it myself. Sheesh.
As for manhattan’s latest diatribe, that might be worth responding to if he were simply being his usual childishly asswipish self. But that goes well beyond it, into the realm of Unabomberesque batshitness. There being no possibility of reasoning effectively with a lunatic, there is no point in trying, and no point in taking offense at anything he says either. Here’s a soothing pat on the head for you instead, manny.
Of course all I know about the Ukranian election is what the news papers and the broadcast media tell me. While that is largely conclusitory with little confirming detail, I am given to understand that there are several hundred thousand people in the streets of Kiev who seem to think that the result is questionable. That the government has not turned the Cossacks lose and instituted a general massacre suggests that these people are not mostly GOP staffers from Washington trying to prevent a recount as was the case four years ago in Florida.
Certainly there is some national self interest in the US position, but the present government is one of the “Collation of the Willing” and an ally in the Iraqi segment of the War Against Terrorism. I would like to think that just once our government is standing on principle and not acting with a view to the next quarterly P & L statement. Consider also the hand of Russia and the prospect of the reassembly of the Soviet Empire. So, maybe not.
As a guy who joined the Students for a Democratic Society in 1962, I’ll mach my Leftist/Liberal credentials against any one’s.
But he didn’t. He explained why the exit polls in Ukraine are not the same as the exit polls in the US, and enumerated other reasons why the poll was considered fraudulent. You then came in and posted some bollocks about how he was only saying what he was because he was a good little Bushite. Lord knows how you think manhattan was the one being partisan, but I’ll ask you again:
Do you agree or disagree that the election was probably fraudulent? If not, why not, and if you do, why did you blast manhattan for defending a position you yourself hold?
Thankfully, we don’t regard the PM’s spouse as a political accessory - she’s free to have her own opinion. And in her job as a human rights lawyer, she’s repeatedly dealt with High Court cases where she’s directly opposed government policies, decisions and legislation. Imagine that happening in America.
…bah
Years of near dictatorship and an election with violent threats, widespread manipulation and fraud leaves Ukraine on the brink on revolution, Russia and the EU on opposite sides, with the future power balance of all of Europe at stake and talk of a return of a mini cold-war and all you seem to be able to extract from this is some lame back-hand hit on Bush. Get a fucking life you stupid idiot! The world doesn’t revolve around the US, Bush or the American election.
Rune said it. This is big. I’m in the neighbourhood (well, relatively speaking, and compared to most of you) and am trying to get a visa to be able to go there and see history in the making. The Ukrainian Supreme Court has said it will deal with Yushchenko’s appeal (he’s the guy who in all probability won) Monday and not allow an official announcement of the next president until they’ve done so. If they come out saying Yushchenko won, it’s quite probably that nothing will happen. If they say Yanukovich won, there is going to be some kind of trouble, although it’s impossible to say exactly what kind. Revolution, civil war, riots are all possibilities, and then we’re probably talking about a major international conflict with Russia on one side and the EU and the USA on the other side.
I’m quite surprised that there isn’t more discussion about this matter here, actually.
Does anyone here think that the notion of the current U.S. administration passing on the fairness of elections AT LEAST as funny as the notion of Sudan having a seat on the U.N. Human Rights Council? Is there no end to irony?
Both channels have said that they’re now going to start broadcasting both sides of the story. Whether this will mean genuine impartiality or a pro-opposition bias I don’t know, but it’s a positive sign thus far.
And here’s the alleged poisoning story I mentioned above. Random doctors a thousand miles away are divided in their opinions, but it’s never too late to start a new conspiracy theory.
Except that no one every suggested that the machines would result in more ballot spoilage.
We don’t know if they worked or not, because the business model of the company precludes allowing anyone to know.
And, just so you know, most studies of our exit polls have shown that the actual results and the polls are different to a degree that is outside the margin of error. However, the most likely conclusion for us is that there is a problem with the polling methodology, not the polls. In part because of all the other factors that make it unlikely that the election was stolen.
Which is pretty ironic when you think about it. One black box system trying to keep another one honest. And they both worked flawlessly! Or at least, for all WE know they could have!