Exorcists

Great Debates
1

If someone were to tell you that they were an exorcist in their spare time, how would you react?

At the moment, this is the position that I’m in. My first reaction was outrage – exorcism, IMHO, is responsible for many of the true evils of this world – but I’m also leaning towards considering the person in question… well, to put it bluntly, I think they must be crazy.

Apparently, they treat the patient/victim well, and don’t torture them (so it probably wouldn’t result in death), but I think it’s the general principle: treating psychiatric illnesses, etc, as cases of daemonic possession strikes me as being not at all far removed from going to see the local witch doctor.

I am particularly disturbed by this because the person in question has a certain level of responsibility in terms of caring for the physically disabled. OTOH, they seem to be very nice and don’t bring this “other side” of their personality to work.

So I thought I would put the question to the Teeming Millions:

Exorcists: harmless kooks or crazier than shithouse rats?

2

You seem to be excluding the possibility that there may be a genuine need for exorcism. From a Christian perspective, there is such a thing as demonic possession, which is clearly different from mental illness. Part of the job of the exorcist is to rule out mental illness first. Some of the criteria they use:

-demonstration of supernatural capabilities e.g. levitation
-feats of strength of which the subject would normally be incapable
-communication of knowledge that the subject could not possibly know

Members of my bible study group, whom I trust implicitely, have told me of an incident in which they drove out a demon from a person who was visiting. When they laid hands on the person who had just been possessed, the demon tried to enter them, but they reported that the name of Jesus drove it back and out of the victim. Apparently it felt a lot like an electric shock, but travelling more slowly up the arm, and moving up the arm in a sort of squiglling feeling.

The possession manifested iteself in this otherwise quite normal individual suddenly cursing obsenities at the particpants in a voice unlike that of the individual, and a general half violent / half epileptic like movements. He was quite fine afterwards and had recollection of the whole thing, but being unable to move and control his body of his own will. He had no history of any psychiatric illness, and manifested no other symptoms afterwards of any delusions or psychosis.

I assure you these are quite ordinary people, not raving preachers on streetcorners condeming everyone. Just very strong, loving Christians.

Of course you can still think we’re a bunch of deluded loons. :wink: In many ways its much more comfortable, even for Christians, to believe there’s no such things as demons / evil angels.

3

I have no doubt of your group’s sincerity, trupa. If you actually drove out a demon, so be it.

But how about the “patient”? Is he nonchalant about the whole thing?

If it happened to me, I’d be scared for the rest of my life. Who is to say the demon won’t return?

4

There are “official” exorcists (don’t the Catholics have a special order of priests who are exorcists?), and then there are people who have cast out a demon or two in their day.

I personally know people that fall into the latter category. They’re pretty normal folks. Deeply spiritual and perhaps more consecrated to God than your average bear, but then they have to be if they’re going to do what they do. All of them have the gift of intercession; could be because intercessors bump into other spirits more than people with other giftings. It’s not something to be taken lightly and can actually cause great harm if you don’t know what you’re doing (just look at the seven sons of Sceva).

I’m not sure what the criteria would be for calling someone an actual exorcist. Number of times they’ve done it? The Bible says all Christians have the ability to cast out demons. Few ever do, either because of lack of opportunity, but I think it’s mostly fear. And plus it’s not something you just do on a whim, you’d better be able to finish what you start, and so I think most believers would just as soon leave things like that to the “experts.”

5

IMO, at best they are taking the place of true medical treatment that might help a delusional person. Which is not good.

At worst, they kill people, like that kid (I think in Philidelphia) that they smothered with blankets.

6

Possessed Man: “YARGA BLARGA PHLEMENCRUPS!”
Bible Study Guy 1: “He’s possessed! Everyone, lay your hands on him!”
Bible Study Guy 2: “…but I just washed my hands…”
BSG1: “NOW!”
BSG2: “Fine, jeez, you’re so bossy…”
PM: “PLIPSO FISHSTICKS!”
BSG1: “The demon is trying to enter us!”
BSG2: Hangs Do Not Disturb sign around neck.
PM: “INKFLUBBER POPSICLE TESTICLES!”
BSG1: “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!”
BSG2: “Um, Ted, have a look at this…”
BSG1: “Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus!”
BSG2: “Ted, seriously, look at this.”
PM: “WUBBY WUBBY HFUHRUHURR!”
BSG1: “JesusJesusJesusJesusJesusJesus!”
PM: falls to the ground.
BSG1: “I exorcised him!”
BSG2: “You knocked the frayed extension cord out of his hand.”
BSG1: “Praise God.”

The above is meant solely for humorous purposes and should not be taken as a slight on anyone’s beliefs.

7

I would be disturbed by the severe lack of critical thinking and judgment.

An anecdote:

It recently came to my attention that my receptionist and copywriter both believe demons are responsible for the former’s bouts of sleep paralysis.

Granted, sleep paralysis is a scary thing - you do feel a “presence” in the room. But, it’s all related to a messed-up sleep state (http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html). I’ve been a sufferer all my life, so I’m quite familiar with tricks to avoid it. I know that when you’re in a partial dream state, you’re not thinking straight - I’ve been known to belligerently swear a blue streak at my night hallucinations, which in turn serves to wake me up, feeling very embarrassed. So, I can be a little forgiving when a fellow sufferer feels overwhelmed and frightened.

Me: “Have you considered it could be sleep paralysis? I’m a frequent sufferer and the symptoms are just what you describe - it has to do with being in a weird REM state. Think of it like experiencing the feelings of a nightmare, but not really seeing much of it. And the reason you can’t move is because your body normally “locks” itself down when you sleep to keep you from hurting yourself. It’s really frightening, I know. Try not sleeping on your back - that’s what sets it off in a lot of people, myself included. Just relax and it will pass. I could show you a few websites with more info. Or, I can give you the number for the local sleep center…”

Them: “No, this is serious. We’re going to pray and try to cast it out.”

Now, as a bit of additional background, the afflicted receptionist is a borderline believer in charismatic healing - when prayer is not a supplement to healing, but instead *takes the place of * medical intervention.

*That * is what I have a problem with, as such a belief system can not only harm herself, but others whom she might feel the need to “pray” for instead of taking a more pro-active stance. And the copywriter shares her beliefs.

Luckily, the receptionist’s beliefs don’t really impact her ability to direct my calls. But you can bet that everything the copywriter puts on my desk will now go under my careful scrutiny - I now feel like I have to check her facts, since she has shown me her lack of critical thinking and research skills. To dismiss my diagosis of sleep paralysis is one thing. But to not even consider it, especially from someone who is rather versed in the subject, and not research it is inexcuseable in someone whose job is to disseminate information.

8

There’s no particular order of priests that are exorcists. But each diocese or archdiocese apparently has one in the area, and that priest is never publicly identified as an exorcist for privacy reasons. Giving them a particular order or rank would broadcast that fact pretty loudly.

9

Sangre Azul,

If your ‘sleep paralysis’ confrontation causes you to suddenly notice shortcomings in your copywriter’s work, then your own critical thinking is suspect.

Your own words indicate you’re a bully, a snob. And if that weren’t enough, your sig is a dead giveaway.

10

I would also have to doubt either the intellect or the sanity of any person who invents magical “demons” to explain medical problems.

A possibility which should be dismissed out of hand as it is ridiculous, impossible and irresponsible even to consider.

11

Diogenes, I agree with you for once. If their first impulse to anything even slightly unusual is to call an exorcist, that is irresponsible.

“Mommy, my throat hurts.”
“My son is possessed! Call the church! The power of Christ compels you!”

However, I believe there are times when there is something supernatural (and quite possibly evil) going on, in which case an exorcism may be justified.

12

That’s harsh,** Antiochus**, attacking the characetr of a total stranger. For what it’s worth, my screen name is an intentional irony, as I am a hopelessly mixed-blood Latino.

How am I a bully? A bully would have laughed at her belief, called her stupid, and embarrassed her in front of the office. I merely offered some alternatives and let the conversation drop when she said she had the situation under control.

I asked: “Did you consider sleep paralysis?”
I did not say: “Demons, are you nuts?”

I am concerned for the receptionist and would like to see her checked into a sleep lab if this is to be a chronic problem.

For what it’s worth, the copywriter is a new hire and her work has been sub-par at best; this was before the incident. I do not let her belief in demons color my opinion of her. I let her blatant dismissal of documented facts color my judgment. A copywriter needs to know how to research (including listening to experts) and she has come up short on all fronts.

I fulfilled my burden of proof - I gave her and her co-worker sources to help with the problem, and they showed no interest. We do a lot of writing for hospitals, and if the copywriter so easily defers to supernatural explanations for documented health phenomenons, then she is not a good match for my company. That’s it, plain and simple.

I do not go out of my way to ridicule anyone regarding their religious beliefs (and again, I did not once make fun of either woman). But my situation, and I think Lobot’s, are examples where there is a conflict of interest in the workplace.

13

I dunno. The Catholic Church demands that all other possible avenues are considered, tried and eliminated before resorting to exorcism. I’m sure at some point in time all things can and will be scientifically explained, but for now why eliminate immediately out of hand?

14

Knowing me, I’d probably ask how well it paid, if they were hiring, and if one had to be Catholic.

I mean how cool would the business cards be? High School reunions? Man, I wanna be an exorcist!

15

Sangre Azul,

Please re-read your first post from the point of view of a stranger, and tell me if you don’t come off as something of a petty tyrant.

You didn’t mention that the copywriter was a new hire. You said nothing of the fact that her work wasn’t up to snuff.

From a factual standpoint, how would you grade your own writing?

But your message was pretty clear: This person had the unmitigated gall to ignore your advice, and by golly you are now going to examine her output very closely, with the unspoken but obvious threat of dismissal.

Then, there’s your “Blue Blood” sig. Okay, it’s irony (as we now learn), but how does it seem to a stranger - especially when Sangre Azul is threatening to come down very hard on an underling.

Put it all together and you don’t come off as Mr. Nice Guy.

Now. Chances are fairly good that your copywriter comes from parents who are obsessed with exorcism, and all that voodoo crap. It’s been pounded into the kids’ heads from infancy. You’re not going to undo all this in a 15-minute conversation.

So maybe you should back off a little.

Perhaps you might consider finding ways to keep her - the copywriter. You can try teaching her tricks of the trade that will make her a better writer; show her how to think critically (it ain’t all that hard). Do what you can to imporove your employee’s station in life.

And along the way, you can try to overcome the devil stuff - if you think it’s essential.

In other words, cut her a little slack. Didn’t anyone in the business world ever help you over a hump or two?

16

Can you provide a single verified example of any “supernatural” occurrance ina ll of human history?

Can you provide any shred of evidence for “demons?”

Can you provide a scientific definition of a “demon?”

All natural explanations for a given phenomenon must be dispositively eliminated before it is rational to resort to the “supernatural.” To date, there has never been a singled verified instance of a supernatural phenomenon in the history of the universe.

Why eliminate goblins or the Elder Gods?

Not every wild hypothesis that can be imagined rises to any level of plausibility which merits consideration. In the case of supernatural demons, you’re talking about a flight of fancy that has no more to support it than a theory of invisible elves inhabiting the stomach.

Like I said, natural explanations for any given phenomenon must be considered FIRST and they must all be eliminated before you resort to the supernatural. So far, we have never failed to find a natural explanation for anything but even if we did, we would still have to show some reason why “demons” are more likely than voodoo dolls or psychic dogs.

Frankly, I am not impressed by the RCC’s claim that it considers all other avenuse. It is not the business of a church to conduct psychological or medical evaluations in the first place, and the church has yet to actually produce anything in the way of evidence for the supernatural or for demons.

17

It seems when writing anecdotes, I’ll have to not to err on the side of brevity.

But, in a nutshell, I could have maybe presented my anecdote another way:

  1. We’re eventually going to be writing a piece for the local hospital’s sleep center.
  2. My copywriter tells me she thinks sleep paralysis is caused by demons. She and another co-worker are actively preparing an exorcism.
  3. I offer some scientific explanations. No, says the copywriter firmly - it’s demons.

Naturally, I’m a little concerned about the quality of her work on this project. Before, I might have thought she was sloppy or getting adjusted to a new environment; now I am inclined to believe she will willfully ignore anything that does not correspond with her belief system.

From a stylystic and narrative standpoint, cumbersome and obtuse. Redundant (and entirely too inclined towards parentheticals). Also, sentance fragments. And I don’t spel very well in English. Which is why I am not a copywriter.

However, I am a researcher. I take an interest in what I’m learning and especially in what I might have overlooked. And I acknowledge the burden of proof.

All I wanted was a simple “Thank you, I’ll take a look.” As another human being, I would like that simple courtesy. I thank her when she prays for me when I’m sick.

With her being a copywriter, I expect some interest in a previously unconsidered area of research. The best workers tend to be those whose job traits are part of their personalities. The fact that she applied for a job writing medical texts when having religious beliefs that so obviously do not mesh could be construed as poor judgment on her part.

Thinking critically isn’t hard in itself, but I respectfully disagree that it is so easy a skill to acquire. Otherwise books like The Demon-Haunted World wouldn’t exist. (Really, all I want this woman to read is the Elements of Style.)

A key component to being able to think critically is accepting accountability for what you do. Which is possibly why these two ladies would rather think demons are causing sleep problems, instead of something more mundane & personal, like stress or bad health habits.

18

I don’t see a sig. :confused:

Maybe the demons took it.

19

My sig was, “I’m right. You’re wrong. So suck it you crazy b****, or I’ll fire you on the spot.”

Actually, I believe Antiochus was talking about my username, which is Spanish for “blue blood.” I don’t have a sig. :rolleyes:

20

Antiochus, I think you’re being awfully harsh on Sangre Azul. Fair or not, employers want people who display good judgement. Her unwillingness to even consider another reason points to someone that seems likely to cause problems. My way or the highway-type problems. She’s paid to research and fact-check and unless you’re incredibly anal (coughmecough) you’re bound to let things slip. It seems as if it’s a job – rather than a career – for her.

And anyway, who are you to go criticizing him for for being high and mighty when you’re acting the same way towards him? That blue blood thing really got you, huh? What, did you grow up on the wrong side of the tracks?