Expensive in the USA but cheap in Europe

[bibliophage]

My understanding from watching Top Gear is that old cars–in running condition but without many miles left on them–are cheaper in the EU than in the US. Something to do with the EU’s end-of-life vehicle recycling mandate means that the scrap value of the vehicle when it ultimately dies is less in Europe.

@Novelty_Bobble

Food - we’ve holidayed in the USA many times and we always get apartments and so end up shopping for much the same things as in the UK and are always struck by the fact that, overall, it costs about 20% more for our range of products.

Objectively, Americans spend a smaller percentage of their income on food than anybody else in the world, yet manage to ingest more calories than most. cite, cite.

Comparing food across regions is a funny thing. I have relatives living in various parts of the U.S. When the come to visit me they always complain about how expensive groceries are here. When I go to visit them I always complain about how expensive groceries are there. I think I have figured out how that is possible.

When you live in an area more than a few months you get a good idea of which stores are the cheapest sources of which foods, how long you have to wait for a good sale, how much to stock up when there is a good sale, which foods are always expensive and which cheaper ones make good substitutes. When you do your shopping in an unfamiliar area that you’re only visiting, it doesn’t pay to do a lot of research. You just go to whichever store is most conveniently located and buy what you want when you want it. You end up paying more than a reasonably frugal local would.

The problem is compounded if you’re in a foreign country. If you insist on buying the same sorts of foods you do at home rather than what the locals eat, you’ll pay extra. If I, as an American visiting Europe, insisted on eating grits, Lucky Charms cereal, and peanut butter I would have to pay dearly. If I could even find them, they would likely be imported all the way from the US. Also, recent changes in exchange rates (e.g., the post-Brexit collapse of the pound sterling) have to be considered.

[constanze]

@Flyer

The US accounts for roughly 43% of all new drugs.
US Pharmaceutical Innovation in an International Context - PMC

I would like to know who in the “US” accounts for the new drugs: pharma companies or University (Independent) Research?

Because pharma companies are multinationals, so only counting the Country where the application process starts first (because the Price can then be set without Limits) without looking at where the Research actually took place skews the results.

From what I’ve read in the past years a growing concerns of doctors is that Research at hospitals and Universities (funded by the state) is getting cut - both in Western Europe and the US - which is where the important new drugs come from, whereas the big pharma companies Keep researching for another headache pill although 40 exist already, but a slightly different structure allows a new patent.

The EU for example and the governments of some countries have started a Project for “orphaned diseaes” - diseases which are serious but affect only a small part of the Population. The pharma companies aren’t interested in searching for a drug, so the Special Projects pays scientists at unis and hospitals.

NGOs working in Africa are also Lobbying for Research against diseases like Malaria not getting enough funding, because not enough Money can be made compared to OTC headache pills.

[constanze]

@Francis_Vaughan

The only useful way to compare health systems is to compare outcomes. Rooms filled with expensive machines that go ping do not guarantee good outcomes.

If you are sick with X, where would you prefer to be treated if you want the best chance of a good outcome? You can also look at the efficiency of the health system - how good is it for the money spent.

Very good Point. You can also look at how many People die in the US because they can’t afford healthcare Remember the People America’s Healthcare System Has Already Killed , let alone the x thousands more who go broke from the cost.

[constanze]

@Ravenman

On the other hand, I’m pretty sure nobody in Europe can afford liquor.

That’s a joke, yes? Far too many People get drunk on hard stuff, and enough People like to enjoy the whole Palette from beer over wine to Obstler, rum, Whisky, brandy …

[constanze]

@Novelty_Bobble

If the USA swapped to a UHC model tomorrow, what do you think would happen to worldwide pharma research?

It would either continue or improve? For example, if only half of the Money the govt. saved by preventing expensive emergency visits because People can just go and see a normal doctor was put into Research at hospitals and universities, you would end up much better, because Research would finally go against diseases and not which condition makes the most Money.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@bibliophage

My understanding from watching Top Gear is that old cars–in running condition but without many miles left on them–are cheaper in the EU than in the US. Something to do with the EU’s end-of-life vehicle recycling mandate means that the scrap value of the vehicle when it ultimately dies is less in Europe.

It’s true that the recycling mandate means there are lots of clunkers on European roads, but bear in mind that Top Gear’s researchers have to look at dozens if not hundreds of crap cars before to find one that will last long enough for a used car challenge.

[constanze]

@Maastricht

In the Netherlands, wages may be lower, but cost of living is less. Most importantly, and a lot of commodities are communal and of better quality then in the US. For instance, our large communal swimming pool is really nice and serves the whole part of town well. Only the uberwealthy have their own private pool.
The same holds for city parks, city libraries, education on all levels, medical care, social security net, safety ( people in the USA have to buy their own car and house alarms, guns, private security, etc) etc etc.

Which is of the course the whole Point of that “socalist” model: by raising taxes to pay for the infrastructure, you can spread the burden on many shoulders, making it small, but every citizen enjoys the benefits.

Also I don’t understand the complaints about taxes - in Germany, there’s a low Level, below which you don’t pay any income tax, the first Level is 20% income tax. Plus the aggravated “social insurance” which Comes from my paycheck into different funds - health insurance, unemployment insurance, nursing insurance - altogether 30%. The top incomes pay less than 50% income tax.

[constanze]

@septimus

In an outcome-oriented system, the risks of mammograms are weighed against the benefits. In a profit-oriented system, an increase in expensive tests is for the better!

In Germany, while there are several Health insurance companies, there are still laws about what Treatments are re-imbursed, and regularly evidence-based Reviews on which Treatments are still on board, which new are admitted etc.

One of the changes at looking at the evidence has been that “the more the better” applies to Expertise: so instead of one women’s doctor doing a few hundred mammograms per year, he sends the patients to a radiology practice which is specialised and does a few thousands per year. They can use much lower dose and still detect more reliably.

Another effect is on hospitals: many smaller hospitals have had their neonatal and kidney transplant departments closed, because evidence showed that doing >100 per year gave much better survival than doing <50. So now specialised centres are concentrated, and the rest is closed. In cases of urgency, patients are flown by helicopter (Christoph Luftrettung – Wikipedia) or transferred ahead of time.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Ravenman

I’m being a little facetious, of course, but in an apples-to-apples comparison for spirits, I’d guess that you’d pay 30% more in most of Europe for the same bottle sold in the US.

possibly, as I say I don’t really pay too much attention to spirits.

ETA: I also think beer is way cheaper. Not trying to pass of anecdote as data, by my favorite, Rochefort 10, sells for about $10 a bottle (330ml) if you can find it in the US. In Belgium, its probably like 2 euro now, something like that?

I can find it for £3.99 a bottle in the UK, so I suspect a bit cheaper in Belgium but probably not 2 euro as the alcohol content is so high. I know in Austria I tend to drink Stiegl Pils which is about a euro for a 500ml bottle and those prices are fairly representative.

[constanze]

@Novelty_Bobble

I know in Austria I tend to drink Stiegl Pils which is about a euro for a 500ml bottle and those prices are fairly representative.

Because Stiegl is a local Austrian Beer. Buying it elsewhere, or buying a UK/ US beer in Austria, makes it more expensive again.

[mazinger_z]

@Kimstu

Yup. When I lived in the Netherlands for a couple of years, I was startled to find that many things including groceries cost less than I was accustomed to paying for them in the US, because like you I had absorbed the usual American propaganda about Europe being this inefficient high-priced economic disaster zone. But as this cost of living comparison indicates, the reality is much more complex.

I lived in the UK while getting my law degree so that I could also practice in the UK. While there, I went to a bunch of places including Amsterdam, so maybe my recollection of prices are skewed by the higher prices in that city and my shorter time there. Nonetheless, expats I have met both here and in the NL all concurred that NL was higher. Maybe we were all broke-ass students, so I checked for COLA stats. Surprisingly, not a whole lot of stats out there. Your link isn’t something I am accustomed to seeing, one of the divisions in my company tracks high net worth individuals and geographic data and some of the data there is different. Of course, we pay for our data and numbeo is free.

However, looking at the individual stats, some things don’t add up (from an economic perspective):

• the US has 11% more disposable income
• utilities are 39% more expensive
• the US has 37% more purchasing power
• rent index is 11% more in the NL
• a new car (VW Golf) is 57% more expensive
• the consumer price index plus rent in the NL is 24% more than the US
• although, the grocery index is 6% higher in the US (although that stat seems to be a numbeo original) see: Netherlands vs United States Cost of living Stats Compared; sourcing from numbeo.

However, on numbeo’s own web site, comparing consumer price index we have this:
Consumer Prices in Netherlands are 3.01% lower than in United States
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Netherlands are 7.99% lower than in United States
Rent Prices in Netherlands are 18.18% lower than in United States
Restaurant Prices in Netherlands are 16.01% higher than in United States
Groceries Prices in Netherlands are 25.56% lower than in United States
Local Purchasing Power in Netherlands is 15.24% lower than in United States

So, there is an issue with data quality. One could argue that the population spending patterns are such that it’s more expensive in the US, but really the key indicators, i.e. disposable income and consumer price index are the general barometers of expensiveness of a geography. However, the US doesn’t have a VAT and we have less taxes overall, so I am bit skeptical that the Netherlands is indeed cheaper than the US, though I do agree with your comment that the non-wealthy do receive more services for their money.

Lastly, I always thought that bread and beer was generally subsidized around Europe (or at least taxed less) to keep the general populace under control.

[Evan_Drake]

@Ravenman

I’m being a little facetious, of course, but in an apples-to-apples comparison for spirits, I’d guess that you’d pay 30% more in most of Europe for the same bottle sold in the US."

Why on the world would you think that ?

ETA: I also think beer is way cheaper. Not trying to pass of anecdote as data, by my favorite, Rochefort 10, sells for about $10 a bottle (330ml) if you can find it in the US. In Belgium, its probably like 2 euro now, something like that?

I don’t like beer — although it’s making is fascinating — but a quick glance shows this fine Trappist drink ( made from monastery well-water ) costs £4.29 online in Britain, = $5.21; although one can get it for 3.3 euro from Belgium online, = $3.50
The last Beer of Belgium, delivers world-wide in 30KG boxes, one one would have to be kinda mad to buy when the US has 1000s on 1000s of good beers.

I am most sure the Well has no such surprises as in M. R. James’ tales, like The Treasure of Abbot Thomas in Eifel, Germany not far from Belgium, or Wailing Well, set in our own dear England.

[Evan_Drake]

@mazinger_z

Lastly, I always thought that bread and beer was generally subsidized around Europe (or at least taxed less) to keep the general populace under control.

Yes indeed, they also add bromide to our tea.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

The VW Golf comparison won’t work for the US, because the 1.4L Trendline is not sold here. We don’t have anything close to it either; the US gets the 1.8L turbo in S, Wolfsburg or SE trim, or the GTi or Golf R. We don’t get a 1.6L Toyota Corolla either. They don’t say what their “equivalent new car” comparison is but the cheapest Golf is actually under $20,000.00 in the US. That doesn’t include taxes, though.

ETA: … has the sterling-dollar exchange rate really cratered that much? 5 pounds is now 4 dollars?

[Hari_Seldon]

In Canada, if you need health care, you get it. Period. You don’t have to concern yourself with whether the doctor is in your plan, or if your plan covers X or copay or deductibles. All the above are inefficiencies built in to the US “system” (if it can be even called a system). My physician DIL spends a lot of time arguing with insurance companies. Insurance companies spend a lot of time arguing with her. She ended medical school with a $150,000 debt and that was after getting a public health scholarship for her last two years. She converted it into a 30 year note and is still paying it out 18 years later.

Incidentally, between Canada and the US, the cost in the latter is about 1 1/2 times not 2 1/2 times. But the outcomes are uniformly better here. Especially for poor people.

[constanze]

@mazinger_z

Of course, we pay for our data and numbeo is free.

So, there is an issue with data quality. One could argue that the population spending patterns are such that it’s more expensive in the US, but really the key indicators, i.e. disposable income and consumer price index are the general barometers of expensiveness of a geography.

I know neither of These sites. But I know whenever the monthly Report on Inflation is published, the discussion starts again on how Inflation is calculated: what goods are in the hypothetical basket? The most obvious case - when citizens were rather mad - was when the Euro was introduced and “Prices in Germany doubled overnight” but “official Inflation stayed at 2% - they are all lying to us!” What happened was that Restaurants really don’t like to print their menus all the time, but with the Change to the Euro, they had a good reason. So they added all the small Inflation from past years they’d skipped and added a few years into the future, to save a bit for the next printing … and the end result was very high Euro Prices. Which hurt them a lot, because People were so upset over the “doubled Price” that instead of going out up to 5 times a week, it dropped to <2 times a week (statistically).

Similar with the basket: for statistical reasons, the Inflation basket contains not only groceries, but also parts of a car, washing machine, rent etc. But People don’t buy those every day: they see the Price increase in groceries, which can vary widely depending on which Food, which Supermarket etc.

However, the US doesn’t have a VAT and we have less taxes overall,

but you do have sales tax, right? Which varies greatly?

[Quote]
Lastly, I always thought that bread and beer was generally subsidized around Europe (or at least taxed less)

[Quote]

In Many european countries, governments have Long recognized that a fixed tax rate, like sales tax/ VAT falls heavily on the poor, to whom it represents relativly a high burden. A Food bill of 100 Euros is harder to bear if your total income is 400 Euros than if it’s 1 600 Euros. (or whatever figures). Therefore, the absolute necessities, like bread, milk, or in Germany, books, are sold with a reduced VAT (7%), while luxuries (like Restaurant Food) is sold with normal VAT (19%, has been raised from 14% over the years).
The Details have been added over the year and gotten rather convoluted (many say ridicoulous) as to what’s reduced and what not.

to keep the general populace under control.

No. We don’t Need to do that. First, we recognize that People Need to eat, and that’s part of what living in a state, a community, means. Second, we try to Keep People in a social System. It’s creaking because too many US practices have been adopted in the past decades which have widened the gap between poor and rich, making the poor suffer and the rich get away.

[Ravenman]

@Evan_Drake

Why on the world would you think that ?

Because I’ve lived in the US and London, and visit friends and family somewhere in Europe all the time, and the prices in liquor stores seem substantially higher. I’m guessing it is taxes, but I don’t know.

For example, I just looked up a bottle of Smirnoff at a London liquor store: £15. The same bottle (actually 50ml larger) around the corner from me costs $14. That’s about 30% more, which seems in line with my experience.

[constanze]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

The VW Golf comparison won’t work for the US, because the 1.4L Trendline is not sold here. We don’t have anything close to it either; the US gets the 1.8L turbo in S, Wolfsburg or SE trim, or the GTi or Golf R. We don’t get a 1.6L Toyota Corolla either. They don’t say what their “equivalent new car” comparison is but the cheapest Golf is actually under $20,000.00 in the US. That doesn’t include taxes, though.

The comparision is more difficult, because how many % of the Population Need to buy a car, looking at the state of public Transport, in Europe vs US?

Another number I remember: in the US, it costs (before the whole housing market Crash) roughly 1 1/2 to 3 average year incomes to buy an average-sized house. In Germany, it costs roughly 10 average year incomes to buy an average-sized house. This means the % of home owners in total Population is much smaller in Germany vs. US. Why? Partly vastly different building codes (better insulated houses means saving Money on the heating bill later), partly land being much more scarce in densly settled Germany. Comparing one Western-European Country with an average US Country will skew, because the rural, poor US states skew the average. A better comparision would be only densly settled East Coast or LA maybe. The poorer regions would be better compared with Eastern Europe.

[constanze]

@Ravenman

Because I’ve lived in the US and London, and visit friends and family somewhere in Europe all the time, and the prices in liquor stores seem substantially higher. I’m guessing it is taxes, but I don’t know.

For example, I just looked up a bottle of Smirnoff at a London liquor store: £15. The same bottle (actually 50ml larger) around the corner from me costs $14. That’s about 30% more, which seems in line with my experience.

Don’t the Prices for hard Liquor vary greatly in the US, too? Partly because of sales tax, partly because of the Special licensing laws? Don’t some of the ex-puritan states have extra anti-alcohol taxes?

Because as already said above, the scandinavian countries are infamous for their high Liquor taxes because of the alcoholism Problem with the seasonal Depression during winter (which leads to Groups of People taking the Ferry and binge Shopping/ drinking in countries with less taxes). I think Britain and Ireland have similar cultural Problems of engrained binge drinking being acceptable, and therefore a Problem the government tries to deal with.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@constanze

Because Stiegl is a local Austrian Beer. Buying it elsewhere, or buying a UK/ US beer in Austria, makes it more expensive again.

Well I wasn’t raising it as a test case for importing, merely as an example of a local, high quality beer. I don’t know what the equivalent would be in the US, not sure that you even sell in 500ml units.