Experiences of women in the military

Today, Salon.com published an article entitled “The Private War of Women Soldiers”, concerning sexual assault and harassment of female soldiers. (You can read it for free after watching an ad.) The letters section is all over the map, but there don’t seem to be a lot of female veterans writing in to share their experiences, and I’m curious how the descriptions in the article compare with others’ experiences. Since the Dope has a number of active-duty and veteran military posters, I wanted to know what sort of experience people had either serving in the military as or with women.

How did the people you worked with interact? Was there sexual harassment and how was it dealt with by the various parties? If you witnessed harassment, what did you do?

I’ve been in the Navy for 12 years, and I have yet to see or hear about serious harassment. I’ve seen feedback from command sexual harassment surveys where a few of the women will cite minor harassment (verbal), but that’s it. From what I’ve seen, most commands make a decent effort to do surveys and provide mandatory sexual harassment classes/training.

The problem is that you’re dealing with very young adults, many of which are recently out of high school and their basic training, and they have yet to mature properly in a highly social environment. The guys will (both deliberately and undeliberately) do things or say things to make women uncomfortable. And on the flip side of that, some women will be (in my opinion) overly sensitive to these things. But on the whole, from my experience, not much serious harassment actually takes place.

Being neither a woman or a veteran, I have no personal experience to offer. But you might check out Love My Rifle More Than You: Young and Female in the U.S. Army by Kayla Williams - she wrote this book about her service in Iraq.

Are you specifically talking about the US military, or any female military from anywhere in the world?

For the most part I didn’t serve with any women.

This isn’t to say that women weren’t in the Navy during the years I was in, but only that because of my rate and training I had almost no contact with female sailors.

I enlisted in 1989, and was discharged in 1994.

During that time I went to the Navy’s (at the time) only co-educational boot camp: NTC Orlando. For the most part male and female recruits were segregated, though there were some classes that would be given to more than one boot camp company. One of the few classes I remember vividly was a self-defense class, especially the section talking about sexual assault. I can’t swear I have it memorized still, but I seem to recall that the stat used in that class was that 33% of all women would be subject to some kind of sexual assault, and 5-10% of all men, that would be reported. It was discussed that the actual numbers were going to be higher, and that no one knew how much higher.

During my training, between NFAS and NNPS, there were about 20 female officers that were instructors. But saying I served with them is a bit of a stretch - there was no common experience to really base that on. It didn’t help that the majority of those women were LDOs, who would never serve in any position other than instructors at NNPS. As such, while there was no question about their technical ability in the subjects being taught, there was also a palpable difference between them and “real” officers. Which was identical to the attitudes towards male LDOs fulfilling the same roles.

After that, I don’t think I even saw a woman in uniform other than while I was in transit to or from my command. Until we got tapped to provide a platform for midshipman cruises for two groups of about 20 female ROTC cadets each. Before they embarked the whole command was very carefully reminded of the regulations about fraternization, and that any complaint directed by the cadets about a sailor’s behavior would not have the presumption of innocence for the sailor. We had no problems with the cadets for some reason. (And morale, which had been in the toilet for reasons I won’t get into here, actually got up to merely rotten. A huge improvement.)

Then, about this time, Tailhook happened. And I’d been thinking that the stats I’d heard in bootcamp must have been exaggerated, or something. Until one of the nicerchiefs on my ship made an aside comment to me on our way to one of the innumerable sexual harassment training sessions that came from Tailhook. He quite seriously said to me something along the lines of, ‘It’s a shame how those guys’ careers are being sunk because that stupid woman didn’t know where she shouldn’t go.’

I grant that this was fifteen years ago, now, so attitudes may have changed, but I reserve my right to remain skeptical that things are as rosy as flyboy88’s view suggests. Without a clear mandate from the mid-to-upper level supervisors, enlisted as well as comissioned, I don’t think that the institutional attitudes are going to change all that quickly. Certainly most of the officers and senior enlisted I knew on my ship handed out the sexual harassment training because it was mandated from above, not from conviction on their part.

Of course, change might have come more quickly than I am anticipating. As I stated, my service was almost exclusively male-only. Women weren’t, at the time, allowed to serve on combatant vessels, and that restriction meant that there weren’t any women Nucs. That’s changed, now, so there may be a bit less of the them/us dichotomy. But I’d have to be convinced of it.

I haven’t looked at the Salon.com article, yet. But I doubt it’s making up anything out of whole cloth. There may be some exaggeration, or statistical adjustments that not everyone would agree with. But I’m sure sexual assault still does happen in the military. The suggested reasons for it may be all over the place, from men are evil, to military social codes that often seem to reach consensus at a lowest common denomenator. I can only hope that the incident rates really are going down.

That same female ratio is in the article quoted by the OP. It’s also the number often cited in general talks about sex abuse and a very rough estimate.

A lot of the things mentioned in the article make sense in any job. Attitude from leadership being paramount, for example. If the boss is pig#1, the nicest guys will blush and look away, but any who either is a piglet or likes to suck ass will be fighting for the pig#2 position.

I’m sure an internet search will tell me, but it’s relevant in this discussion; are women allowed in the infantry in the US military?

Certainly in the British Army, women aren’t allowed in roles to close with and kill the enemy (infantry’s phrase, but it extends to other capbadges). So that’s RAC, infantry, SAS, Rockapes and Marines not available to the girls.

The girls that I’ve been on exercise with have been great, because they brought deodorant and getting to smell something nicer than wet squaddie is nice.

The article includes mention that women aren’t allowed into “combat units”, but that in actuality many of the women in Iraq are finding themselves in combat situations. The specific example they give is a MP, whose unit would be helped by infantry when doing “police work” and at other times go help the infantry with “search and seizure” work.

I think all a clear mandate will do is to push the harassment problem further underground, with perpetrators doing more to cover it up.

I think a LOT of the problem comes down to gender segregation based on perceived physical differences, and certainly on perceived political headaches because of “wives and mothers being sent home in body bags”. Given that women have been killed in combat before, and are being killed now, I’d say the latter doesn’t wash.

The problem of harassment will end when women are respected for what they can do, not pigeonholed for what they can’t do.

Robin

My female cousin in the Canadian Armed Forces had a heck of a time getting posted to a combat role in Afghanistan due to her being embroiled in a custody dispute with her deadbeat husband. She had custody, and had planned to leave the little nipper with her parents for the duration. Deadbeat dad had other ideas, with which neither my cousin nor children’s services agreed. The military gave her a date by which she either had to have the family litigation resolved, or else she would be removed from her unit and posted to somewhere in Canada. She was able to hammer it through the courts in time to meet her deployment deadline, but it was touch and go for a while.

Obviously this is not just a women’s issue, but given that there are a heck of a lot more single moms with custody than single dads, I expect that it would create a problem that would tend to affect more women than men in the armed forces.

Note that this is not an issue of discrimination. It is simply a serious problem that can be faced by single parents of either sex, but happens to be disproportionately faced by women.

I was in the Navy from 1989 to 1993. At sea, women were not allowed on surface combatants then; they did ship out on AOE’s and AOR’s, which are support ships, so we’d see them on unreps.

Ashore, I had limited contact with female sailors. The only time that I saw them was at the ASW school in San Diego. Several were senior enlisted instructors. The majority were pregnant Torpedomen. The Navy wasn’t sure at the time about the long term effects of being exposed to torpedo fuel, so some of the girls would strike for TM, get pregnant, then receive permanent shore duty as a result. I do not say this to belittle female sailors; I’m just reporting what I observed when I was there.

The closest that I came to personally interacting with a female sailor was during a uniform inspection. The inspector was a Lt. Commander. She was attending a class at the base. She gave one of my classmates a hit for having too much chest hair. We went around the corner to have a smoke afterwards.

My buddy was upset. “What does she think I am, a g*****n Werewolf?”.

Unbeknownst to us, she was on the other side of the corner, having a smoke of her own. Hilarity ensued.

I agree with this. Certainly I never understood the logic, in the Navy, for allowing women to serve on oilers, and other supply vessels, but not on combatant vessels. In a combat situation the only vessels likely to be a more important target than the fuelers are the aircraft carriers. What a great way to keep women safe. :smack:

My sister is currently enlisted in the Navy. She hasn’t had any problems with sexual harassment, exactly. Of course, there is a lot of vulgarity in the workplace–much of it somewhat misogynistic–but she is expected to tolerate that as a matter of course. It doesn’t bother her much.

What DOES bother her is that her COs tend to treat men and women differently. Not on the job so much, but in how they are treated when outside of work. COs tend to try to babysit the women.

For example, last year, my sister applied for leave to come home to Iowa from where she was stationed in Virginia. Her CO demanded to know how she was going to travel. My sister wanted to drive it, so she could pick up some stuff she had at my parents’ house, and planned to do the drive in a day and a half each way. She’d done it plenty of times before. But her CO told her he wouldn’t approve leave for her until she bought a plane ticket and showed it to him. He didn’t think a woman could drive that distance alone and be safe, and was determined to play daddy to her. :rolleyes: The men she works with can travel however they want without being harassed by COs.

Another time, a CO saw my sister at a party in a sexy (but not really slutty or revealing) top. This was a party for someone who had reenlisted, but it was held on private property. He told my sister that in the future, she would wear button-down shirts with sleeves to any “Navy function,” which included in that definition any private function where the guests were mostly Navy. Of course, this means he was trying to set a dress code for virtually every social function my sister attends.

I was in the Army 1994-2000. I joined up at 28, and the Army was the first workplace where I was not sexually harassed.
They gave briefings on sexual harassment prevention from day one. I was always frustrated by the joking around on the part of the young female soldiers about sexual harassment prevention training. They were joking around because they had never been * sexually harassed and they thought the idea was funny. If you’ve been harassed, you know it’s not funny.
Based on my experiences and those of my female soldier
friends, I believe there is less sexual harassment going on in the military than in most other walks of life.
I did have some friends who were mildly stalked by a fellow soldier who was clueless, but it was peer sexual harassment rather than the kind your superior can subject you to, the kind that makes you wish you’d never been born and makes you consider drastic solutions.
On the other hand, I did know one female soldier who was unbelievably crude and forward with the young male soldiers, and I should have ratted her out for her behavior, but at the time I was very new and afraid to rock the boat.
*When I say ‘soldier’ here I’m including airmen, seamen, and marines.

Anywhere in the world would be great.

I’ve been trying to find Love My Rifle More than You but no bookstores have it and it’s constantly checked out at my university’s library.

Roger that…

I must preface this by saying that I have not served in the armed forces. My anecdotes are second hand, from friends and family members who have served in the Australian defence forces, most notably the RAAF. I have done work experience on base, but everyone was on my best behaviour when I was around, because I was only a kid.

My mother was in the RAAF before she had me, then worked as a civilian on several bases whilst my dad was enlisted. She’s mentioned in the past that there was a pretty misogynistic culture, but not a harassing one if that makes sense. The guys would have girlie calendars in “non public” areas (not in the main hangars or offices), and jokes would be made but none of the jokes or comments were ever aimed at the women who worked there.

My best friend’s mother reached the rank of Wing Commander after spending her whole career in the RAAF and reported much the same thing when I talked about her with it (I was planning to enlist at one stage). It’s a bit of a boys club, the boys will play up and try to get a rise out of the girls when they can, but there’s no malicious intent behind most of it. It’s just playing around and if you play back, the guys are cool and they respect you for it.

Another friend who actually enlisted (and then washed out of basic due to an injury) told me about a guy in her unit who became too friendly, and wouldn’t take no for an answer. She says it took some time and a very large burden of proof on her part to get anything done about it, but when she could prove it he was moved to another unit (it was “just” harassment at that stage, no physical contact so they didn’t discharge him).

Having said that, however, there have been several reports in the last few years regarding rape and assault in the ADF, including serious allegations of gang rape at ADFA - the Australian Defence Force Academy.

My belief from the news that I’ve read and the people that I’ve spoken directly to is that both aspects of the story can be true. For the most part, it’s slightly crude humour and boys playing around, that may or may not be acceptable to the women in their unit. However I also believe that there have been and may continue to be instances where the playing around is either a) inadvertently over the top and genuinely offensive to someone or b) not “playing around” but a serious attempt to assault or harass a person within the ranks. I would like to believe that the Australian Defence Force takes harassment and assault on anyone, male or female, seriously but there’s a lot of conflicting information out there so it’s really hard to say.

I have been in the military as a member of the ranks - 1993 - 1997 and just this year as an officer cadet (since April).

As a member of the ranks I was harrassed a lot. I was young (17 when I joined) and was hit on (nicely and not nicely) constantly. It ranged from a simple, “Hey, wanna f***?” to stealing my undergarments from the dryer, scaling the wall to come in the window at night and having an intructor (in basic training) order me to perform fellatio (I told him no, obviously).

I do remember passing out after a grad night in my own bunk and having to tell another instructor to leave me alone, when he didn’t I said “I was on my period.”

I have not had any experiences like this as an officer - but I am older, and it was a while ago too.

I have not seen or heard anything that would lead me to think it was still this bad.

Allow me to add that stealing my underwear from the dryer - while irritating and inconvenient was not something I would consider as harrassment.

One more thing - when I returned from basic training I had a terrible reputation - that I was a “course mattress”.

Even though I had gone to basic as a virgin, and had returned as one. I was the only female in my troop that did not engage in sexual activity with the guys on course/instructors. So of course I ended up with the worst reputation

Last week, I read Women in the Line of Fire, which is concerned with how female service members in Iraq and Afghanistan are serving and contained a brief history of women in the military. Women aren’t allowed in infantry units, but they can be attached to them.

I was Active Army from 2000 to 2004. I never saw anything like harassment firsthand. Even in situations you’d expect to see it, I didn’t.

There was plenty of sleeping around, but no harassment.

The only two bad tales I was aware of in my four years are as follow:

  1. In AIT, a buddy of mine went out and got drunk with some chick, only to have her vanish before dawn and tell the drill sergeants she’d been raped. Messed my pal’s career up before it even began. We never found out why she did it, but she had the rich girl mentality that she could do as she pleased, so maybe it was just a game to her.

  2. At my regular post, there was a rape in the barracks, though the details never got out. This is because it happened in the MP barracks. Yup, the military police had their own, seperate barracks and they are the ones to make trouble. Frankly, it didn’t surprise anybody. I have a personal dislike for cops in general, but these jackasses were so full of themselves nobody else on post wanted to hang out with them.