I used to be a doorman and I routinely accepted expired IDs. I would often demand a credit card as supplemental ID. In Texas, only a valid driver’s license or ID is valid for identification purposes. Since this was in a college town, refusing to accept out-of-state driver’s licenses or passports would cost you half your business. Basically, I could accept anything I wanted to for proof of age, but my actions would only be defensible in court if I was presented with the approved IDs. As to why I sometimes refused to accept an expired ID, it was either because I heard the TABC was on the prowl (screw with them at your peril) or because I didn’t want to let them in for another reason (usually because they were already drunk). Pointing out that the ID was expired led to fewer conflicts.
Honestly, it’s because I have some issues with child support (for my son) that resulted in a suspended license. I can’t drive with it, but it worked perfectly fine for ID until it expired. I’m hoping the support issue gets sorted out this month so I can renew it before I move. In the meantime, I’ll probably just go get a state ID. It’s funny, even the county won’t accept it as verification of my identity despite the fact that I’ve presented every other acceptable form of ID (i.e., birth cert, marriage cert, SS card, proof of residence, etc.) right in front of their stupid faces and they have copies of all on file. It’s been a mess that I’ve, unfortunately, neglected cleaning up for too long.
I have a handful of old DLs from various states I’ve collected since I’ve started driving. I can’t recall ever being asked for it back when I renewed, so I can understand the restrictions in place from the fraud point-of-view. It’s just weird (and annoying) that one day this card confirms who I am, where I live and how old I am and the next day, it doesn’t confirm squat.
Just think about the law and come up with a way to word it so an expired license could be used to purchase alcohol/tobacco/pornography/6-gallons-of-cough-syrup/etc. You really can’t.
The law requires a valid ID for purchase of alcohol. The lawmakers could take the word “valid” out of the law. But if the ID isn’t required to be valid, can I print something off my computer and use that?
I have often wondered about this exact question. When my license expires, I’m still the same person with the same identity. The only thing that has changed is my legal right to drive.
This explanation is the only one that makes sense. Too many people would just continue driving with their expired license, figuring what are the odds of getting pulled over for any reason . . . and they’ll deal with the consequences if they occur. But to be unable to support their habits . . . that’s serious.
A big purpose of any governmental agency is to continue raising revenue to support its own existence and keep their jobs. They need to give you an incentive to pay your fees in a timely manner. So they make it harder for you to support your habits till you pay up. But then again there are guys like me who neither smoke nor drink; besides, at 62, they’re more likely to want my ID for a senior discount.
But I’m wondering about some of the comments here: when you get a new license, don’t they keep the old one? Are there states in which they don’t? Isn’t that just asking for abuse? Of course, there are the “lost” ones, real or otherwise.
No, that’s the whole point. AFAIK, state laws usually don’t require that you present a valid ID - they require that you present something to the cashier that establishes your identity and age.
You could just as easily show them a passport or something.
In Florida, you can legally purchase a valid ID from any schmuck on the street; said schmuck is required to obtain a certified copy of a proof of age document from you, and a signed affidavit, and that’s about it.
How about this: “A state issued drivers license or ID card is valid as identification in perpetuity. The printed expiration date on a state issued drivers license affects only the license to drive, and not the card’s validity as legal identification.”
I agree with the OP. There’s no particular reason that an ID card can’t be valid indefinitely. One’s identity isn’t something that changes.
Now, you can say that people would be using licenses with pictures that don’t identify them any more, but it won’t really happen that often, since most people will regularly update their licenses in order to drive, and it’s not limited to expired licenses. I got my driver’s license photo taken when I was 17, with hair down to my shoulders. I didn’t get another one taken for 8 years, and I looked very different. But my id was still valid.
A bartender once refused to serve a GF because of an invalid ID (she was 28 and clearly didn’t look underage).
My $.02 is that a persons appearance can change to the point where the original photo can no longer be used to accurately identify them. How different did you look 10 years ago? PA Identification cards are valid for 4 years, which seems like a reasonable cutoff point.
Interestingly, my California drivers license has this on the back:
This License is issued as a license to drive a motor vehicle; it does not establish eligibility for employment, voter registration, or public benefits.
Doesn’t say anything about being used for personal identification. I don’t have the time to dig further, but I’d imagine there’s a specific law or two in the civil code that defines a drivers license as personal identification as well as a license to drive.
In Washington State, they punch a hole through the old one and give it back to you. I think I’ve still got every license I’ve ever had. When I’m doing something where I don’t need a valid license to drive, but might need to be identified (e.g., jogging around the neighborhood) I’ll carry one of the expired licenses.
The day after my license expires, it is just as good as it was the day before if all you need is age verification. Expiration has nothing to do with that unless you can reverse time. The problem lies in the wording “valid”. The criterion for validity for ID shouldn’t be the same as driving.
The idea that requiring an UNexpired DL for age verification prevents a black market in expired docs is an after-the-fact rationalization. Use of an ID that is not yours is asking for trouble to begin with, expired or not.
I don’t know about PA, but in CA, even though we get new licenses every few years, we don’t get a new photo taken nearly as often. I had a new photo taken 8 years after my first one (and then again a few months later, since I got a motorcycle license. I got into a nice little quasi-licensed state, for a week or so, too. When they issued me the paper license, they punched a hole in my old license. They punched it right through the year in the expiration date. Luckily, the bouncer at my local bar recognized me, but I did have to speak to a manager at the grocery store when I tried to buy beer). The two intervening license replacements were just issued with the same old photo.
Plus, the issue of a photo not looking like the person is orthogonal to the issue of an expired license. Regardless of whether the license is expired, if you can’t identify the bearer as the person in the photo, then it’s not valid identification. Similarly, if you can identify the bearer, and it looks like a legitimate state-issued license, then it shouldn’t matter if it’s expired.
The black market argument is sort of a non-starter, too. You can get a replacement license for $12 in CA (claim the original was lost or stolen). I can’t imagine that that would be a serious economic obstacle for the illicit false id market.
No one in this thread has had the heart to break it to you, Brown Eyes, so I guess it’s up to me.
When your driver’s license expired, you expired. You are no longer valid. You mean nothing. You are void and null. You don’t count. Zero. Nada. Zilch. 무, 微不足道的事(或人), 何もない, nichts
It’s possible you could have changed your name or gone to Jenny Craig or gotten a new set of eyes or something. Also, having ID’s checked periodically at bars and restaurants and such is a good way of getting the fake ones out of circulation.
Furthermore, as license technology improves (holograms, barcodes and such), people must be forced to renew in order to get the upgraded version. You didn’t think Bill Gates was the first to come up with that idea did you?
There probably exists somewhere a study showing that the chances of an ID being fake or in the hands of the wrong person increases in direct proportion to the age of the ID card itself. So forcing people to renew every five years is just another layer in the birthday cake of national security.
There is nothing more irritating than a worker not accepting an expired license as a form of identification. I just went through with today with the Los Angeles Social Services Department. I told them I was not driving, just identifying myself, and if I was to produce a false ID I certainly wouldn’t show them an expired one. The only reason I could even be where I was is because I already showed them valid id and my social, and they sent me a letter inviting me to the class. I wonder what is the worst thing that ever happened when someone used an expired license as identification. The cops will accept it as ID. If it is somewhere that you must do business with and will be returning, I usually point out really loudly to the person who first did not accept the ID that I now have a current one and it is still me, and ask them if they need me to drive somewhere for them. A Social Security Card, or mine anyway, can be easily duplicated, has no picture on it, and it states not to be used as ID. The upside of all of this is that you can weed out the anal retentive people who are senseless, who have no happy life and enjoy rejecting people, are not that bright, and are so busy obsessing about little details that circles can be run around them. I also hate it when they say, “what happened to your license?” I want to say “none of your f-ing business”, or “can you ask me something that is relative to the situation, what does it matter?”. I try to refrain, because usually, these people are employed in a low paying position which gives them just a little bit of authority, which is the only authority they have, and they transfer it into the power to control a situation and they take that power to control too seriously. When they leave their little job, they go out into the real world and their little lives and are not the boss of anyone in real life. I know the business they work for makes the rules and they must enforce the rules, but, personally, I use common sense and bypass some of the rules and sometimes put my job in jeopardy, but, I can always get another job, some people don’t have the luxury of being in my situation. I think companies make the rule of current valid I.D. because if a person were to be some type of criminal, they wouldn’t be able to get current I.D., even though they say it is just for identification purposes. If I can show a cop my expired ID and they believe it is me, a business should do the same.
My wife worked in liquor sales for a while, and the official reason was simple - as mentioned, an expired ID is not valid, especially for driving; and so not necessarily an important document for the original owner to keep. It could be borrowed or taken. The real owner has a valid one, the expired one can easily be passed on, the owner will not miss it.
The expiry also makes sense. The owner has not had to present themselves and verify their identity and appearance for a while. Things may have changed.
The “1 day later” argument makes sense, but then how much grace is too much? A month? A year? 5 years? 10? Simplest, easiest rule is - “valid” is while it is valid.
If you can’t get a renewed driver’s license, they you fall into the category of people who do not have driver’s licenses. Society is stupid, in that what should only be “permit to drive” has turned into a general ID document more pervasive than the old Communist/Nazi “Papers, please”. My French teacher (from France) complained that when writing cheques at stores, his typewriter-completed local drivers license meant more to shop owners than his official-looking printed French passport.
As far as rules being stupid. My 92-year-old stepmother was carded at the airport in Idaho because rules said, if someone (my dad) orders an alcoholic drink, and the person with them does not, you must verify that person’s age. No visual exceptions.
Meanwhile, back around 1972, my 18-year-old brother, 5’7" and childish-looking, would lend his (typewritten) drivers license to his 15-year-old exomorph friend (6’3" thin and looked 20’s) to buy him alcohol because it was easier than arguing with the clerks.
