Explain English geography to me

Factual Questions
81

The Map Men video emphasizes that Yorkshire is currently the (historic) county that has a strong notion of identity. People from Yorkshire tend to identify themselves as such. And the Yorkshire accents are distinctive, not only to Britons, but even to non-Britons. (Think Ned Stark and Ygritte on Game of Thrones)

Patrick Stewart speaks quite often of his Yorkshire origin — Sir Patrick Stewart talks about growing up in Yorkshire - YouTube

But it’s worth pointing out that Britain has had very regional cultures for centuries. If you go back far enough, they were speaking different languages—Norn, Gaelic, and Scots in Scotland, Cumbrian in Northwestern England, Welsh in Wales, Cornish in Cornwall, Old Norse overlying the Northeast. And that’s not even considering that various dialects of English could be very different from each other.

The ethnic ancestry of people in various parts of Britain can be very different based on region too—Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Danes, Norwegians, various kinds of British Celts, Scots and other Irish groups, Picts, etc. Even up to more modern times—heavy Irish settlement in Liverpool, heavy South Asian settlement in Bradford.

And on top of all that, British culture is loaded with stereotypes about what people from X place is like, whether it’s a region or a city or a neighborhood, like Scots, or Geordies or Scousers, or Mancs, or Yorkshiremen, or Welsh, or Cockneys, or whatever.

So if you are like me and have only a vague idea of what all these associations are about then you might not catch the full meaning when British people point out to each other where someone is from.

Four Yorkshiremen—

(Michael Palin actually is from Yorkshire, but Graham Chapman and John Cleese wrote this sketch before Monty Python was formed.)

Patrick Stewart demonstrating the Yorkshire dialect he grew up speaking. He often says that he learned English as a second language—

82

Cumbrian/Brythonic/Welsh and their cousin Pictish were also spoken in Scotland - they were possibly they only languages spoken in what’s now Scotland around 400AD. The presence of Gaelic before that time is debated.

83

My list wasn’t meant to be exclusive, but, yes, depending on how far back you go, you could list a lot more.

84

Deciding the island of Ireland represents an Irish nation is something that a significant portion of Northern Ireland would strongly disagree with- hence the Troubles.

There is literally no reason to bring the Rebublic into the discussion anyway. The analogy would be UK country ~ US state; Ireland is the equiavalent of Canada or Mexico. You’re lumping in another country, then claiming you don’t mean all of it, you actually only meant the bit that’s part of the UK, but you’re not going to refer to it by its name, for some reason, and that’s just odd and confusing.

85

Besides a Starfleet captain, they can also boast a Soviet field marshal

86

Yes. It’s really not accurate to claim, using any reasoning, that one of the parts of the UK is “Ireland,” and it’s a hugely politically loaded claim, too.

87

So far as I know, the people of the Republic of Ireland, and the majority of people of Northern Ireland (including unionists) consider their nationality to be “Irish.” And the unionist Irish also consider themselves to be part of the British state and perhaps also have a British nationality. So, if “nation” means “nationality,” then the four component nations—that is, nationalities—of the United Kingdom would correctly be named as English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish, with “British” applying to everyone in the U.K. This meaning of “nation”—meaning a group of people with a common nationality or ethnic identity—is usually contrasted with “state,” meaning a political entity. Unless you’re saying that the people of Northern Ireland claim a different nationality, that being “Northern Irish.”

88

Some consider themselves Northern Irish, yes.

But that’s not really relevant - I’m sorry, but it’s just factually inaccurate to claim that Ireland is one of the parts of the UK. I find it astounding that two of you are actually making that claim.

89

I was the one who originally mentioned Ireland, I felt it was tangentially interesting in a discussion on English counties and their desciptions, since Ireland had an English style structure of counties imposed on it by English colonists and yet that structure remains more intact in the RoI than it does anywhere in the UK.

But yes, the thread did not need to be confused by a discussion of the bigger divisions of the UK that has already been had on these boards many times before. All that had to be said in answer to the OP was that English counties are in no way analogous to US states. If anyone wanted to discuss whether England, Scotland etc were analogous to US states that should have be done in a new thread.

90

You’re astounded and so am I (at least with respect to me) because I’ve said nothing of the kind.

91

You did, though.

And that was in response to me saying that Ireland is not part of the UK. If you didn’t want to disagree with that, then… well, honestly, you really need to rephrase your posts, because it looks an awful lot like you’re disagreeing with that.

92

I’m sorry, but no, what I said is not what you said I said,

No, I think you should be the one who reads the actual words I said instead of assuming something I didn’t say. I don’t believe that responding to a post automatically indicates disagreement.

93

I quoted your exact words - I didn’t paraphrase or omit essential information. If you weren’t disagreeing with me, what were you doing??

94

This is what you claimed I said:

“… that Ireland is one of the parts of the UK.”

I did not say that anywhere in this thread, not even in the part of my post that you quoted.

If you weren’t disagreeing with me, what were you doing??

Seriously, you can’t read my words and understand what I’m saying? Even after my original post takes care to define terms? I’m not going to bother explaining it further.

95

No honestly, I don’t understand what point you’re making. That might be on me. But you said that the four nations of the UK could be “would correctly be named as English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish.” Specifically, you said “nations - that is, nationalities -” but that parenthetical phrase means that you’re saying that the nations of the UK would correctly be named as English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish.

I’m not arguing for the sake of it - if you weren’t saying that Ireland is a correct term for part of the UK, then I don’t know what point you were making.

96

This is where the fundamental problem lies. Republicans and Unionists mean different things when they call themselves ‘Irish’.

There are large differences in culture, religion, language, ethnicity, and history between the two groups, and lumping them all together as one ‘nationality’ or ‘nation’, or whatever you want to call it, is a mistake.

97

Nevertheless, they both name their nationalities as “Irish.” Should we not take them at their word? The nationality of 2 million British citizens is Irish.

98

Now you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. :grinning:

I suggest you read up a bit on the history of Ireland.

99

I’m saying what I’m saying precisely because I have read more than a bit about the history of Ireland.

100

But it’s lead you to believe that everyone in Ireland (well, more than everyone, actually, given the population numbers) considers themselves Irish?