[QUOTE=VCO3]
Good: MF Doom - Rhymes like dimes (live)
Lame: 50 Cent - “candy shop”
[/QUOTE]
Ahh… hmm…
Ah…
Hmm…
How to ask this without… hmmm…
Okay, well. In that MF Doom video, the audience is, as far as I can tell, all white. (Not just some – All.)
Can I derive some… significance… from this fact?
I am not generally one who listens to Hip Hop so I am ignorant in these matters.
-FrL-
[QUOTE=Frylock]
Ahh… hmm…
Ah…
Hmm…
How to ask this without… hmmm…
Okay, well. In that MF Doom video, the audience is, as far as I can tell, all white. (Not just some – All.)
Can I derive some… significance… from this fact?
I am not generally one who listens to Hip Hop so I am ignorant in these matters.
-FrL-
[/QUOTE]
It is true that MF Doom has a large following in the white community. As does many other hip hop groups that I like. (Wu Tang, Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, etc.)
I think the significance you can draw from that is that those groups transcend black culture. They have lyrics and beats so amazing, people outside of the culture strive to relate. This is also true for much reggae music. Not so much the dance hall music that I love, but definitely a large white following for reggae music.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
How long has hip hop been around? DJ’ing and graffiti have been around longer than I have, and I was born in 1958. I don’t really think you can attribute them to hip hop culture. Until the last 20 years or so, most of the graffiti I saw seemed to be either gang territory marking (certainly not tied to black culture) or decorative (largely Hispanic).
[/QUOTE]
If we strip the word down to its origins, then you are right. One can argue that Greco-Romans have been scratching words in walls for centuries.
But most people are referring to this, *when they say black hip hop culture heralded in Graffiti as an art form, along with beat-box, cutting and scratching, Lyrics, break-dancing and pop-locking.
While it is true that Latino culture has a very strong showing in Graffiti, I have yet to meet a Latino graffiti artist who separates the graffiti they do from the graffiti that the black hip-hop culture made popular in the very early 80s. That is to say, they acknowledge black hip-hop culture as the vehicle that brought about the form of graffiti art that I linked to.
*Yes there is much better graffiti art out there, but I am just trying to make a quick point.
Sorry to post again right away, but I get so hype when the topic is hip-hop.
I want to say that I notice a lot of people get caught up in whether the lyrics are ‘gangsta’ or not. Don’t! Don’t concern yourself about the subject…look instead for the technical skill. The way the clever play on words interweave with the beats.
Some of the best hip-hop I have ever heard was ‘gangsta’, (namely, KRS-ONE. I was 12 years old, and he was god to me!)
Some of the best hip-hop I ever heard was not gangsta. De La Soul, Jungle Brothers…KRS-ONE!
Try to think of it the same way you would think of a movie. You wouldn’t shun the Godfather just because it is ‘gangsta’.
Also, I caution against letting the slang throw you. One of my favorite artists, Ghost Face Killa has so much heavy slang that his music literally sounds like a different language. But if one takes the time to decipher it, it is rewarding. He truly is a master story teller.
What if I had not read A Clockwork Orange just because the Cockney slang threw me! I would have missed quite the jewel!
[QUOTE=Lakai]
What do you think about the first song I posted?
[/QUOTE]
I haven’t listened to it yet. I’m planning to take some time and go through all the suggestions in the thread, and I’ll let you know. I really do want to be open minded about it.
[QUOTE=Lakai]
I find it hard to believe that you won’t enjoy a song because of it’s message. What about the sound of it? Does that matter at all?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it matters, but so do the lyrics. If a song has absolutely awesome lyrics, but I find the music annoying, I’m not going to listen to the song. Ditto great melody/annoying lyrics. It’s the combination of music and lyrics that make a song enjoyable to listen to.
[QUOTE=Lakai]
I mean I love Cocaine Blues, but I never used cocaine. There are songs I like because I can relate to them and then there are songs I like because they sound good. You make it sound like you don’t have any songs you like just because they sound good.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, there are songs I like just because of the song. Take Eric Clapton’s song, Cocaine. Awesome song. Great guitar. Catchy riffs. Fantastic instrumental interludes. I’ve never tried cocaine, but it’s a great song. Or Emerson, Lake & Palmer’s incredible song, Pirates. I really like it despite the fact that it’s about a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers. It’s just a great song.
My point is that rap music focuses very strongly on the lyrics. If the lyrics are glorifying something I don’t like, it’s much more noticeable than with rock or country. And I use the word “glorifying” for a reason. I could probably enjoy a really good song even if it was about domestic violence (Garth Brooks’ The Thunder Rolls, maybe?). I would have trouble enjoying a song where the lyricist is bragging about how much he enjoys beating up women, and he’s really good at it, and women are just skanky whores anyway, and so on. The lyrics would completely distract me from enjoying the music. Do you see the difference?
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated]
While it is true that Latino culture has a very strong showing in Graffiti, I have yet to meet a Latino graffiti artist who separates the graffiti they do from the graffiti that the black hip-hop culture made popular in the very early 80s. That is to say, they acknowledge black hip-hop culture as the vehicle that brought about the form of graffiti art that I linked to.
[/QUOTE]
You’re speaking of graffiti “art,” which I assume would be a legitimate painting. I was speaking of graffiti in the classic sense: willful and illegal defacement of someone else’s property. If you’re talking about someone hired to paint a mural in graffiti style on an overpass (I saw this a lot in L.A.), then you’re probably right. If you’re talking about graffiti as in spray painting “George sucks donkey balls” on the side of someone’s building or putting a gang sign on a bridge, then I submit that it far predates hip-hop.
Invisible Wombat, can I throw in a couple of plugs for non-US rappers? From the UK Dizzee Rascal - a really young guy from the projects in London who discovered his innovative rhythmic talent while messing around at a youth center for underprivileged kids; his first album Boy in da Corner is a breath of fresh air, and he raps with a very strong London accent and slang. Then there’s The Streets, again in the London venacular, whose first two albums, Original Pirate Material and the ‘concept’ album A Grand Don’t Come for Free are superb (though the third album sucks).
And then from France there’s MC Solaar, who’s in the early-nineties jazz hip-hop mode of US3, but better; and French is a delicious language for rappers.
For the love of God, please don’t suggest the awfulness that is The Streets.
OP checking in –
I was watching So You Think You Can Dance last night, and they featured a performance (of “Glamorous,” I think the name of the song was) by Fergie and some dude (Ludacris?).
Is this a good song?
Well, if you have to ask, then no.
Seriously, though “Fergie and _____” will mean that it’s closer to pop than Rap/Hip-Hop.
[QUOTE=twickster]
OP checking in –
I was watching So You Think You Can Dance last night, and they featured a performance (of “Glamorous,” I think the name of the song was) by Fergie and some dude (Ludacris?).
Is this a good song?
[/QUOTE]
It’s catchy, but I think it’s one of the most loathsome songs I’ve ever heard. A lot of Fergie’s songs make that list for me. 
Oh, and yes, it’s Ludacris.
What, “Fergilicious” didn’t do it for ya?
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
Well, if you have to ask…
[/QUOTE]
Shrug
I thought the OP made it clear that I have no idea what the difference is between good and bad rap, or what the various subdivisions of the genre might be – so, yes, I have to ask.
I’m not a big fan of Fergie’s solo stuff but I do love the Black Eye Peas’ album “Elephunk.”
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
What, “Fergilicious” didn’t do it for ya?
[/QUOTE]
That one’s awful, as was her last hit with BEP, “My Humps.”
I don’t listen to much rap and hip-hop, and when I do it’s often by people with a hybrid style like Sage Francis (listen to SeaLion!) and Jupiter Rising. And I really like it when rappers/hip hop artists and rock artists team up. “Anxiety” Black Eye Peas & Papa Roach, “Still Not a Player” Big Pun and Incubus, “It’s All About the Benjamins” Puff Daddy & Foo Fighters, “Bounce” Snoop Dogg & Rage Against The Machine etc. I like Trip Hop too, but that’s getting far afield of what you’re asking.
Anyway, when it’s just rap or just hip-hop the lyrics are what makes it good or bad in my opinion. There was this song I was listening to a few weeks ago that had a fantastic beat, just a really great sound, but then I listened to the lyrics. Apparently the rapper was urging a woman to play with herself on the dance floor :eek: Didn’t keep that mp3.
[QUOTE=VCO3]
Actually, you seem to have it completely backward. This is probably because the “urban youth” you dealt with get their culture from MTV and BET, which are run by middle-aged white guys.
[/QUOTE]
Bzzzt. Not even close. Most of these kids wouldn’t have access to cable. I’m talking honest, true blue, “in the hood” culture.
Also, as I said before, the local non-mainstream media agrees. And I’m talking about one of the largest metro areas in the country that has a disproportionately large urban music scene.
Don’t guess. Get informed.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
This sounds like a good thread for another “old fart” (49) to ask a rap question. When I first started hearing rap or hip-hop music (this thread hasn’t explained the difference to me) thumping out of people’s cars, it was an absolute given that the car’s occupants would be black teens or tweens. Today, there’s a much wider demographic, and I see a lot of white people, older people, and Hispanics listening to rap music. I’ve heard pieces of some of the more complex stuff being referred to in this thread, and I probably could develop an appreciation for it. I like music performed by talented musicians, no matter what the style.
The few times I’ve actually listened to the lyrics (like when I’m at the gas station and the car next to me has the music at 120dB with the windows down), they’ve been universally violent, misogynistic, profane, and boastful. The themes have been crime, drugs, prostitutes, killing, and gangs. This turns me right off. Is there rap that isn’t about “busting a cap in yo ass after fucking yo sister like the ho she is?”
Can you recommend an artist I should check out? I like complex, clever music. The lyrics don’t have to be about life out here in rural Montana, but I’d appreciate something you don’t have to be a gangsta wannabe to relate to, and something that isn’t so filled with inner-city teen slang that I can’t understand it.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
Part of the problem is that you’re looking to limit yourself to a subset of the music that doesn’t really reflect the genre’s full artistic range. If that is what you wish to do, then that is your perogative, but it’s roughly analogous to someone in the ‘60s refusing to listen to the Rolling Stones’ “Satisfaction” because they don’t want to hear overt sexuality in their rock music. Sure, there were good songs around at the time that weren’t so sexual as “Satisfaction,” but why restrict your listening. Part of the problem is also in asking for entertainment from socially responsible pop stars. Popular music artists are many things, but throughout history, there has been little call for something as dull as social responsbility to be a part of their reportoire. Leave that to the politicians and businesses. Perhaps our entertainment can revolve around wild, transgressive figures.
For instance, the themes that are offputting to you need not necessarily be so, nor are they indicative of artistically devoid art. Jay-Z is a good example. He was a Biggie associate, is a hip hop legend, and because he’s now tranformed into a media figure he manages to be palatable to white people and liberals. And unlike other rappers who appeal to white liberals (Atmosphere) he’s still gully. Look at this verse from “Izzo (Hova),” a song that could easily be dismissed as flossy ephemera with a nonsense hook:
Niggaz actin like I sold you crack
Like I told you sell drugs; no, Hov’ did that
so hopefully you won’t have to go through that
I was raised in the projects, roaches and rats
Smokers out back, sellin they mama’s sofa
Lookouts on the corner, focused on the ave
Ladies in the window, focused on the kinfolk
Me under a lamp post, why I got my hand closed?
Crack’s in my palm, watchin the long arm of the law
So you know I seen it all before
I seen hoop dreams deflate like a true fiend’s weight
Listen to the way he shuffles around his rhymes and false-rhymes (for instance, his pronunciation of “sofa” and “corner” have them sounding like a near-rhyme), and the way it all interplays with the beat and the sample to create a complex piece of music. Look at the way he sketches the scene, and the complex emotions he sketches with his simple images; the dread and fear he felt, the odd pride he feels at having been successful in his venture, the lingering sense of shame that he feels at having escaped poverty that way, mixed with the defensive reaction to those who would criticize him.
And observe such complexity throughout rap, for instance, the hints of Shakespeare in Nas’ raps (for instance his “I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death” is reminiscent of Macbeth’s speech on having “murdered sleep” after his slaying of Duncan.)
[QUOTE=VCO3]
I specifically omitted things from the list that would be off-putting to someone over 40 or 50; profanity, gangsta posturing, excessive violence/misogyny/etc.
[/QUOTE]
What the hell? I’m over forty, and I assure you I don’t require shielding from naughty words and idiotic posturing. I’m actually a big fan of excessive violence. If I want to learn about something, I want the whole picture, not some sanitized version.
What a bizarre and condescending thing to say.
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
What the hell? I’m over forty, and I assure you I don’t require shielding from naughty words and idiotic posturing. I’m actually a big fan of excessive violence. If I want to learn about something, I want the whole picture, not some sanitized version.
What a bizarre and condescending thing to say.
[/QUOTE]
I think he was making a list for InvisibleWombat who has expressed her disinterest in that aspect of rap.
Alreadymichigan, that was an excellent post. If you ignore all music that you deem morally deviant you’ll miss out on some pretty artistic stuff. Rock has been subjecting women for decades (although usually with euphemisms like cherry pie), rap is just more explicit.
Some of Nas’ first CD “Stillmatic” is also good stuff.
Also, I don’t tink he was necessarily trying to “shield” you from the lyrics, he didn’t want to give an improper reflection.
