Rap is not music? Are you smokin' krack?

Cafe Society
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I’m placing this in the GD forum because discussions are a little more civil, usually, than the BBQ Pit. If this gets out of hand, as I know it will, Mods, feel free to move it to the pit.

Alright, this is what I’m looking for. Can someone give me one good reason that rap music cannot be music? Just one, just one little reason. But this reason must make sense. If you go off on some tangent about how, “I just don’t get the lyrics” or "How could someone saying’ “Bitch ass Ni**a wit a gat…” be music? Well then your only showing your ingnorance. - That’s your choice.

This is where I’m coming from. Everytime I put on a music channel and there’s some rap music playing, my father insists that it’s not music because their not singing, their rapping and that’s just talking really. Really? Rapping and singing both have to have melody in them to work. Talking is totally different than rapping. If you don’t think so, well, your mentally impaired. (I don’t mean that my father is mentally impaired, just ignorant of the facts, more or less he’s just prejudice to understanding what it’s about. As most people are.)

“They don’t know how to play instruments”. Here’s a lame ass exuse for saying that Rap Music isn’t music, if I ever heard one. I guess whistling or tapping a pencil on my desk isn’t music right? Does it really matter where the music comes from? Whether it’s beat boxin’ or using samplers to makes loops, when you hear the final product, is there no beat? Can you not tap your foot to it? It certainly isn’t any different than rock. It’s has the same amount of repetitions as rock. 4, 6, or 8 beats, or whatever you prefer. The beat is there.

“But there’s no sheet music”. Moron. You do NOT need sheet music to make music. Try telling that to Tom Morello. You think every top 40 hit had sheet music, you are so wrong, so wrong. My father claims that all bands must have sheet music. Then he’s goes to websites to prove me wrong. What he fails to realize is that any kind of music can be converted to paper sheet music, if someone really wanted to. Even if the original music was never written down, it can still be transposed to sheet music. This goes for rap music too. Every violin loop, piano loop, drum loop or what have you, can be put down on paper. Can it not? Now what, what?

I can certainly understand your dislike for rap music, because for the most part it consists of foul language and a rather loud and fast paced beat, and unfortunetly for some of you “black people do it”. Assholes. And i’m fine with your opinion except for the latter. But this does NOT mean that its not music on any playing field.

Thanks.

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Oh yeah, here’s a little poll I found on the subject:

http://www.dotvsdot.co.uk/vs/0/337.html

Please try not to make it about what the rappers are sayin’ that doesn’t make it music, like those idiots did.

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He is stating his opinion, and in the ear of the beholder he is entitled to it. Rap is most certainly a kind of music. You don’t have to be singing to have music. If I go out on the street and bang on trash cans, and a passerby enjoys it and calls it music, then it’s music.

In my opinion, animal cartilage isn’t edible in any way, under any circumstances. It’s garbage. But there are lots of people out there who would fry it up and call it an appetizer.

[Full disclosure: I hate rap.]

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Sure it’s music. It’s also nauseating drivel for the most part.

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there is no debate here. He just doesn’t like rap, and is suckering you into a debate about it.

My advice:
let him win. conceede the point, “ok, you’re right, it’s not music.” the fact that you like it is reason enough to listen to it and that makes it a valid choice. If you want the debate to end, then let him win.
You guys probably have a long history of contentiousness though.

maybe you can follow up with “ice cream isn’t music, but i like that too” if you need to feel superior in any way.

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Attrayant: That’s cool you hate rap, no problem with that. Atleast you called it music, to a certain degree.

I understand that it’s an opinion to hate it. But to say that it’s not music is not an opinion, but an ignorant statement against the facts. It’s music. That’s it.

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I agree fully with Attrayant. Rap is music. Polka is music, too, and so is country. Doesn’t mean I have to like any of them, but I can’t deny that they’re music. As far as the “They’re not singing, they’re talking” argument, ask your dad if he enjoys any Joe Satriani songs. No lyrics at all. No lyrics, no singing, therefore, it’s not music, right? If he’s more of a classic rock person, Jethro Tull had at least one song with no lyrics…but the music remained…or were they just making “noise” because Ian Anderson wasn’t singing? How about the opening track for Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon, Speak to me? It was pretty much a heartbeat, some laughing, a bit of talking, alarm clocks ringing, and laughing at the end…or On the Run, also on Dark Side of the Moon? Or Any Colour You Like, which is purely instrumental? I don’t know of many rock fans that can say they honestly don’t like any Pink Floyd (know a few, but hey, there can’t be that many, can there?). Here we go…everyone loves “Christmas Eve in Sarajevo” by the Trans-Siberian Orchestra ('til it gets played 400 times per day at Christmas time), right? Ask what the lyrics are for that… :wink:

And though, generally, I don’t care much for rap, there are a few songs that just catch my ear…certain people have their own distinct style of rap that I like. Country and Polka, however…not even Weird Al can make me listen to polka. :wink:

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Rap is music. Music doesn’t need singing to be music (look at jazz and classical, for example).

I personally despise rap music, for many reasons. But I would still call it music.

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Rap is supposed to be a form of rhythmic poetry set to a background riff, rather than music as such.

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You might try asking your father to actually define music. Almost certainly, he’ll have to make you wait while he carefully formulates one that includes what he likes, and which doesn’t include rap. Then, when he brings it back, show him your carefully-crafted definition (which is, of course, absolutely objective) and then point out that you’re not even talking about the same thing. At all later points when he declares that rap isn’t music, say in rude tones, “Yeah, by your definition!”, thereby implying that his definition is stupid. In this manner, you can cut off the argument, and actually be right as well.

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pervertatoid while you mention Pink Floyd, how about their early avant-garde stuff? Like their song “Several Species of Small Furry Animals In a Cave While grooving to a pict”. It has squirrels making funny sounds and some other random noise. Or their song “John’s Psychadelic Breakfast” which is two acoustic guitars noodling over a track of a guy making breakfast.

Some people love Pink Floyd’s early stuff.

How about John Coltrane’s Ascension? It is 40 minutes of 10 instruments playing whatever each individual feels, with no form or structure. And some people say it is a pinnacle of modern art.

How about the Residents? That is the farthest from music that could possibly be called music. But it’s still music.

Rap is one of the few genres of music I don’t like. I’d actually say I hate Rap music, but I could respect some of it (take the Roots, I like them because they actually play instruments). There is some visual art that I wouldn’t call art, but Rap is different from this.

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Well, to me, rap just sounds like (bad most of the time, but sometimes quite entertaining) poetry spoken along with musicial background. It does come close to music, but the way words are said keep it from being true music to my ears.

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You might try asking your father to actually define music. Almost certainly, he’ll have to make you wait while he carefully formulates one that includes what he likes, and which doesn’t include rap. Then, when he brings it back, show him your carefully-crafted definition (which is, of course, absolutely objective) and then point out that you’re not even talking about the same thing. At all later points when he declares that rap isn’t music, say in rude tones, “Yeah, by your definition!”, thereby implying that his definition is stupid. In this manner, you can cut off the argument, and actually be right as well.

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And that’s a rap.

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Well said. Rap can (to some, I suppose) be classified as ‘entertainment’, but ‘music’? I dunno…Talking over a a ‘sampled’ track doesn’t seem very musical to me. Other then the stylings of Bismarkee, of course.

But if the Grand Council of Deiciding What is Music declares rap to be music, I don’t think that much changes.

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Didn’t mention any of Pink Floyd’s earlier stuff 'cause I’ve heard Animals once, and don’t remember it much (long time ago), and am only “very familiar” with Wish You Were Here, Dark Side of the Moon, and Division Bell (and a few songs from other albums, but not the entire album). Though when I do hear a song from older albums, I usually tend to like 'em. :wink:

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Give me Blondie’s “Rapture” any day.

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Hmm, I’m not sure about the moron bit. But yes, it can be converted to sheet music. In fact I’ve got several song books with rap in 'em. Including the Beastie Boys “Hello, Nasty” album all done up as sheet music. I’ve got “Baby’s Got Back”, MC Hammer stuff, Blondie’s Rapture. Heck, I’ve even seen Jill Sobule (of “I’ve Kissed A Girl” fame) do an acoustic version of Snoop Doggy Dogg’s “Gin And Juice”. Old school rap does lend itself to better translations via sheet music. It tends to be more instrumentally oriented (not a lot of new rap that uses guitar for example, it happens, but not in the amounts it used to). So the standard translation into PVG sheetmusic for new rap tends to be sparse with N.C. (no chord) and X’s for notes.

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I would say that Rap falls somewhere between music and performance art.

And I think there is a little truth to not calling it ‘music’. Music, by my definition, is the playing of musical instruments. Acapella singing isn’t music in my book, its singing. And while Rap always contains some music its just background rhythmic filler. And its usually just generic, computer generated, electronica. The emphasis is on the lyrics. And to compound it, they’re not even singing, their ‘rapping’.

This is why I don’t like Rap (or Country for that matter). I don’t care what ‘message’ or ‘story’ a lead singer is conveying so much as what it sounds like. That’s why I like bands such as Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin, Def Leppard, Jethro Tull, Guns N Roses etc. They put their effort first and foremost into the music. The lyrics are always secondary. This is why I also think that the ultimate ‘music’ (whatever that means) is and always will be classical.

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Moderator’s Note: I think a debate about whether something is or is not “music” belongs in Cafe Society, so off it goes.