Explain the "poor" mentality to me

[Kimstu]

@dracoi

• Or you can do even better: On Sunday, pre-cook several meals that can be frozen or refrigerated and re-heated with minimal effort.

Oh, you get Sundays off with some free time to cook, do you? Must be nice.

Many poor people and ex-poor people are the first to admit that a lot of poor people’s problems stem from poor choices. But the patronizing advice and criticism that non-poor people like to give about how to stop being poor are usually riddled with unconsidered assumptions about options and conveniences that poor people frequently do not have. Like easy access to quality supermarkets, and relatively efficient commutes, and reliable childcare, and vermin-free living quarters where you can safely store food staples or leave food in a slow cooker unattended for several hours.

“Thrifty non-rich” is simply not the same thing as poor, and its coping strategies are not always interchangeable with those of real poverty.

[sisu]

@Senegoid

Is this true? Is this a fairly new law? When I was apartment-hunting in San Fernando Valley (part of Los Angeles) in 2004, I sure saw a lot of apartments without refrigerators. And these were real apartments in apartment buildings, not just backyard guest houses and converted garages and storage sheds. (Well, there were those too.)

Can you cite me a law I can pull in case I ever have to deal with that kind of shite again?

wow, as an Aussie I find this bizarre. I have never rented a place with a fridge a stove always but never a fridge.

[Nava]

Kimstu, please explain to me how is vermin supposed to get into the slow cooker, cos with the ones I’ve seen, they’d need to be able to use wrenches.

[Dr.Love]

@even_sven

Not necessarily. Saving $10 a week gets you $520 extra dollar a year. What are you going to get for that? Half a college credit? A used car that takes you ten years to save for?

One of the points of this thread is that the poor end up spending more because they can only afford the cheapest things. If you put that $520 towards something with a higher up front cost, but lower ongoing costs, you’ll be able to save more than $10/week in the next year. Maybe you’re really poor and you’re staying a hotel long term at $200/week. If $520 covers a security deposit on a $520/month apartment, suddenly you’re saving $300+/month rather than $10/week. Maybe you could buy a used bike and baskets, so that getting to a grocery store 2 miles away becomes feasible. You could even buy some used appliances to make cooking easier, or save time from going to the laundromat if your apartment has the hookups. Or, maybe you just hold on to the $520, so that a $500 emergency doesn’t ruin you.

[Dr.Love]

@Nava

Kimstu, please explain to me how is vermin supposed to get into the slow cooker, cos with the ones I’ve seen, they’d need to be able to use wrenches.

Are you maybe thinking of a pressure cooker? Slow cookers tend to have glass lids that sit unsecured on the pot. Example

[Senegoid]

@sisu

wow, as an Aussie I find this bizarre. I have never rented a place with a fridge a stove always but never a fridge.

Come on over to California, sisu; the water’s fine! Yes, most apartments that I’ve seen come with fridge (and stove). Except in Los Angeles, apparently. But I’ve never heard that all of them do (or are supposed to at least), and I’ve never heard of a law saying so.

Many apartments even have indoor plumbing. (Well, I don’t know about Los Angeles though, come to think of it.)

[Senegoid]

@Nava

Kimstu, please explain to me how is vermin supposed to get into the slow cooker, cos with the ones I’ve seen, they’d need to be able to use wrenches.

Well, so they use a wrench, just like you or I would do.

[stui_magpie]

It’s an interesting topic for debate if I may throw in my 2 cents of opinion based on experience, not cites involved sorry.

In response to the OP there’s a number of factors at play, some generational, some upbringing and some just mindset.

We have a much more generous welfare system than the USA yet the descriptions of mindset I read here are very similar. What keeps people poor is that mindset of not planning for the future but living from day to day and blowing money on crap they don’t need instead of making do with something else.

My parents were both children of the great depression years. Both were raised hard by thrifty parents, yet my dad was hopeless with money while my mum was really good. Everything he touched with money turned to shite, she bought a milk bar (corner store) worked her guts out and when she leased it out took on part time jobs.

I left home at 19 and moved from the bush to the city on my own after getting a job. I was one of the working poor but I cooked dinner at home for myself as it was cheaper and easier than takeaway.

Then I started earning a bit more, got a house married and had kids and went from working poor to poverty line. I still bought groceries and cooked dinner each night, took leftovers to work for lunch, did my furniture shopping on hard rubbish days (a council designated day when everyone loads their junk onto the nature stip in front of their house) and got by. The kids were healthy, ate well and didn’t lack for anything they NEEDED. I divorced when the kids were young and did most of that as a single parent with the kids living with me.

My Ex and most of her family were and are hopeless with money. If I gave her money to go buy groceries she’d come back with everything except meat and vegetables, just bag after bag of crap and convenience food. Some of her family have 3 generations still living in government subsidised housing, all on welfare with the girls popping out kids as soon as they leave school to get the welfare benefits (hey, worked for their mum). They have a decent car, newish furniture, the compulsory massive flat screen TV’s, live on crap junk food and most of the kids have ambition or inclination to do anything else with their lives. Those who do, don’t know how. They’re trapped.

My kids grew up knowing that money was short. 2 years apart in age but couldn’t be more different. My daughter is the young one, she works. Hard. And saves money. Paid cash for a 2nd hand car, buys her clothes on sale and bargains. She doesn’t want for anything but she’s thrifty. My son is like my dad, good intentions but can’t save and always looking for a shortcut which constantly burns him but he just doesn’t learn from it.

I’m doing all right these days, I have a decent amount in the bank and while not wealthy don’t consider myself poor. When ever I mention the money in the bank (which isn’t often) my son’s eyes glaze over and start imagining the car he could buy with that. My daughter thinks I’m extravagant when I bought 2 new flatscreen TV’s for the house for a total of 2/3 the price her step brother spent on one.

So in summary, the “poor mentality” to me is a mindset that can’t be escaped, whereas poverty can with the right attitude and opportunity (and a touch of luck)

[Crafter_Man]

@Kimstu

Capitalism is not just a happy bunny garden where we all continually maximize our achievement but some admirable people are able to maximize theirs further than the rest of us. It’s a state of perpetual instability in which every shift means that somebody somewhere is taking a real hit in the prosperity.

So you believe capitalism is a zero-sums game, i.e. if someone makes a dollar, someone loses a dollar? If someone becomes wealthier, then someone else must become poorer?

[Cheesesteak]

@even_sven

Saving $10 a week gets you $520 extra dollar a year. What are you going to get for that?

What does a rich person get for investing $20,000 in 30 year treasuries? Answer - About $10/wk

Thing is, it’s possible to save that $10/wk with an hour’s worth of work spread out over a night or two, done during commercials or while watching your favorite show, or while helping your kid with his homework.

How much more effort is there in roasting a chicken with baked potatoes than there is in cooking up fish sticks and a can of peas? I’m thinking 5 minutes of prep time and 5 minutes of plating time. Add $1 of veggies and maybe 15-20 minutes of effort over the rest of the night and that chicken carcass turns into chicken soup for two more meals.

Is it much harder to make a big pot of chili that can be dinner and a few lunches than it is to make one meal of Hamburger Helper?

When you develop your skills, you get to choose dishes that don’t require constant attention, you don’t have to watch a roasting chicken or a pot of simmering chili. You set them up, and let them cook until done.

[Kimstu]

@Crafter_Man

So you believe capitalism is a zero-sums game,
i.e. if someone makes a dollar, someone loses a dollar?

No.

@Crafter_Man

If someone becomes wealthier, then someone else must become poorer?

Not necessarily by the same amount, which is what makes the system not zero-sum.

You’re confusing the concept of “zero-sum game” with the more general concept of “winners and losers”.

There is not a fixed sum of wealth or opportunity in the economy, and as I pointed out above, in principle the long-term effect of a market system is to increase wealth and opportunity for all. But the short-term effects of a market system include constant gains and losses.

[msmith537]

@Kimstu

Now of course the idea is that in the long run, this constant adaptation makes markets more efficient and frees up room in the economy for new successful ventures. But in the long run, we’re all dead. In the short run, somebody is always walking away from the latest mutation more financially insecure than they used to be.

njtt is quite right that this is a fundamental part of how the system operates. Capitalism is not just a happy bunny garden where we all continually maximize our achievement but some admirable people are able to maximize theirs further than the rest of us. It’s a state of perpetual instability in which every shift means that somebody somewhere is taking a real hit in the prosperity.

That is why we have safety nets like unemployment insurance and welfare. The downside is you have to constantly learn and adapt so your have relevant skills you can market.

I really don’t know what you expect. That your job should be preserved for all perpetuity, even though it may no longer be necessary?

The “poor mentality” is very much one of learned helplessness and shortsightedness. The main difference between poor people and rich people is that poor people figure out how to save more while rich people figure out how to earn more.

[Ulfreida]

I didn’t grow up poor, but my close friend, who comes from Oklahoma trailer trash stock, is of the opinion that one reason that many poor people stay in poverty, and make so many what seem like obviously dumb choices about managing their finances, is that they are, in fact, stupid. Dim. Slow. Below average in intelligence.

By the way, this is not something you can, you know, help. You are born with an IQ potential. So, two uneducated rather dim-witted people make some children who have an excellent chance of being no smarter than their parents.

People of lower than average intelligence – especially those who are poor and have poor, uneducated, not very smart parents – have a harder time sorting out sales pitches from good advice. Have a harder time imagining and then keeping to long term priorities that make sense (or moving out of the slum where at least they know people and how to do stuff). Have a harder time getting scholarship money to pay for education that might get them a leg up out of poverty.

My sister’s spouse also comes from a family like that. In that family a week does not go by without a crisis, often the kind of crisis that smarter people avoid – car is repossessed so can’t get to work so loses job. Unplanned pregnancy of teenage girl, father doesn’t have a job and mother, long-divorced, is barely mentally stable. Stuff like that.

My sister’s spouse did crawl out of that mess, but with enormous difficulty. For one thing, as the only person with a stable home and income, she is leaned on constantly for help by her family. Same thing with my friend. Both of them have family in and out of rehab and in and out of jail. Their families don’t support them, they drain them.

[dracoi]

@Kimstu

Oh, you get Sundays off with some free time to cook, do you? Must be nice.

Many poor people and ex-poor people are the first to admit that a lot of poor people’s problems stem from poor choices. But the patronizing advice and criticism that non-poor people like to give about how to stop being poor are usually riddled with unconsidered assumptions about options and conveniences that poor people frequently do not have. Like easy access to quality supermarkets, and relatively efficient commutes, and reliable childcare, and vermin-free living quarters where you can safely store food staples or leave food in a slow cooker unattended for several hours.

“Thrifty non-rich” is simply not the same thing as poor, and its coping strategies are not always interchangeable with those of real poverty.

We’ve already seen a statistic that 2/3s of the poor don’t even work full-time, so don’t give me grief over assuming they’ve got one day a week off.

And if the vermin can get into a crock pot, the solution is to put it in an oven. (This is already a more energy-efficient option for anyone). If the vermin can get into a refrigerator… well, I think we call those kids, and I’m assuming you want to keep them.

[Kimstu]

@msmith537

That is why we have safety nets like unemployment insurance and welfare.

Right, which are non-market modifications of the capitalist system.

@msmith537

I really don’t know what you expect. That your job should be preserved for all perpetuity, even though it may no longer be necessary?

:dubious: Wow, defensive overreaction much? I didn’t say word one about expecting that jobs should be preserved in perpetuity or that nobody should have to cope with change.

I simply pointed out that njtt was quite right in noting that the market mechanisms of a capitalist system intrinsically depend on making winners and losers, and that Quartz was off base in trying to deny that fact.

Market fundamentalists can get really touchy if they think anybody is saying anything in any way negative about capitalism, and I think that’s an irrational reaction. Of course the effects of economic fluctuations in capitalist systems are painful for some of those affected by them; that, as you noted, is the very reason why we also have non-capitalist mechanisms like unemployment insurance and welfare, so why get upset when somebody merely points it out?

[Frylock]

Basically:

Even if every person in a capitalist system were an ideal capitalist, someone would have to wash the dishes and take out the trash.

Capitalists sometimes try to associate people’s jobs, income, social class, or whatever, with inherent capitalistically virtuous merit. But I’ve now seen twice on these boards that when I ask “what if we made sure everyone had the resources to quit whenever they wanted,” the response has been “But then who would do the grunt work?”

This response belies the attempted association of life-station with personal virtue. Capitalists want somebody to do the grunt work. They don’t actually care who–so long as its not them.

[Frylock]

ETA: Don’t get me wrong. I’m a total capitalist. I cop to every statement I just made. (Though I’m constantly casting about for something better… that’s also plausible.)

[Shagnasty]

@Frylock

Capitalists sometimes try to associate people’s jobs, income, social class, or whatever, with inherent capitalistically virtuous merit. But I’ve now seen twice on these boards that when I ask “what if we made sure everyone had the resources to quit whenever they wanted,” the response has been “But then who would do the grunt work?”

This response belies the attempted association of life-station with personal virtue. Capitalists want somebody to do the grunt work. They don’t actually care who–so long as its not them.

That is not true in the least. You don’t have to have a lifetime caste type system to get the 'grunt work" done. People can do it when they are in high school or college just like me and many others did to earn extra money while studying to do something different as a career. Some people also like ‘grunt work’ more than they like more cerebral occupations especially if the physical job pays the same or more. There are people who are career waiters and bartenders by choice and engineers and maintenance workers that voluntarily work on things like sewer systems. It takes all types to make the world.

[Bricker]

@Frylock

Basically:

Even if every person in a capitalist system were an ideal capitalist, someone would have to wash the dishes and take out the trash.

Capitalists sometimes try to associate people’s jobs, income, social class, or whatever, with inherent capitalistically virtuous merit. But I’ve now seen twice on these boards that when I ask “what if we made sure everyone had the resources to quit whenever they wanted,” the response has been “But then who would do the grunt work?”

This response belies the attempted association of life-station with personal virtue. Capitalists want somebody to do the grunt work. They don’t actually care who–so long as its not them.

I’d like to see the context of those discussions. Can you provide links?

[Quartz]

@Frylock

Capitalists want somebody to do the grunt work. They don’t actually care who–so long as its not them.

Actually, a capitalist will want someone else to do the grunt work when it is not cost-effective for the capitalist to do it himself or herself.