Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver."

[duffer]

@FinnAgain

waiters and delivery folks are taxed based on their projected tips. And if you they report a figure that’s under the standard figure for their line of work, they may even have their records audited…

As a side note, I had a bartending gig for a year that reported expected earnings from tips reported to the IRS. Nothing was ever withheld for the “phantom earnings.” I was the main day bartender and tips were calculated on sales. We had 2 waitresses. The tips were based on sales (the waitresses were supposed to kick a bit of tip money to the barkeep :rolleyes: ). Total sales. Coffee, lunches, etc that I never had a part in.

At the end of the year my tax bill increased $138 because of this. The only way to fight it was to write out a daily record of the actual money I got in tips. I thought of doing it (making up the numbers, who the hell records that shit when you don’t think you have to?), and realized the possible fines and penalties weren’t worth it. I paid the extra money.

Then I started thinking about all those shitty tippers that kept trying to coax a free drink out of me. And I still get :mad: .

[Miller]

@RTFirefly

I think I’m in apparent agreement with the OP: there are no good guys anywhere in sight.

1. The non-tippers: jerks.
2. The restaurant, for saying delivery people shouldn’t be tasked with noting an incorrect order: idiots. These people are there to provide a service in exchange for tips. Let 'em serve. The restaurant (and the deliverer) should point out that a phone call to the restaurant will fix an incorrect order much faster than telling the delivery guy/gal, since the deliverer’s return trip isn’t instantaneous, even if you’re the last customer on their route. But if the customer wants slow service, hey, the customer’s always right.
3. The delivery people, for expecting tips after being upset that the customer has tasked them with noting an incorrect order: lazy bums.
4. The delivery people, for taking out their anger on the receptionists and security guards when they don’t get tips: jerks, for doing the equivalent of kicking the dog because you’re mad at the boss.
5. The restaurant again, for condoning their delivery people’s harassment of the guards and receptionists while criticizing the non-tippers. Jerks.
6. Any non-tippers there, or Dopers (tipping or non-tipping) here, who think the restaurant’s being unreasonable for stating a clear policy before cutting off service. That’s the one thing the restaurant’s doing right. Maybe they’re creating a de facto delivery charge and calling it a tip, but the English vocabulary’s been stretched in worse ways. Deal.

I agree with all your points, except 2. Obviously, I’m just guessing here, but if some people in Otto’s office are routinely stiffing delivery people on the tip, to the point that multiple restaurants are threatening to halt delivery there, I’m thinking these are going to be exactly the same sort of assholes who tear a strip out of the delivery guy’s hide when there’s something wrong with the order. I kinda think that’s what the restaurants are complaining about, and what we saw in the OP is the management putting a nicer gloss on it than, “Stop being dicks to the delivery guys.” If this is the case, I’d tend to give the delivery guys a little slack for unloading on the security guard. It’s not really fair, but still, you do your job to get the food there on time, and not only do you not get a tip, but you get yelled at because some guy in the kitchen forgot the pepperoni? I know I’d be pretty pissed in that situation, and maybe not making the best decisions about who to take my anger out on.

I have to say, though, I really doubt that there are more than one or maybe two people responsible for giving the whole office a bad reputation. Otto, is this the same office where someone swiped your iPod? Did they ever catch that guy? I wonder if there’s one guy who’s making a habit of putting in the order for the office and then just pocketing the tip money, because I have a hard time believing that there’s a whole office building full of people who are such assholes that they regularly refuse to tip delivery people.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Arnold Winkelried

Why shouldn’t other industries like widget-makers be depending on tips to supplement a below-average salary? Presumably, the widget-makers are also too lazy and unprincipled to complete their duties satisfactorily without the added incentive of having to depend on the current mood and of Joe Blow off the street, and Joe’s opinion of what deserves a gratuity.

Because our fictitious widget-maker doesn’t have to deal with the public, and therefore is not engaged in putting on a good mien for the public. He can be whatever he wants all the time rather than trying to make nice when he’s having the worst day of his life.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Arnold Winkelried

Why shouldn’t other industries like widget-makers be depending on tips to supplement a below-average salary? Presumably, the widget-makers are also too lazy and unprincipled to complete their duties satisfactorily without the added incentive of having to depend on the current mood and of Joe Blow off the street, and Joe’s opinion of what deserves a gratuity.

Are you serious?

Well, widget-makers are not a service industry. They do not encounter the customer directly. There’s not a tradition of their being paid via tips, a tradition strong enough and well-enough established to make it possible for them to make a living in this fashion. As I said, different industries may benefit from different pay models; there is no reason to force one model onto all industries, as your first post in this thread satirically suggests.

By the way, what’s your argument for saying that it works very well in the busking industry?

That people still go into busking, when there are alternate paths for making money by playing music.

“Tradition” is not a particularly strong argument, but it’s stronger than a couple of people’s pet peeves. If there’s an infrastructure to do something in a particular way, then the benefit of any other system must outweigh the disadvantages inherent in making the change.

If your model is so good, surely there would be a market for it. Why are there not more fine dining establishments, or delivery establishments, that pay living wages and don’t require tipping? If you’re correct, these businesses would get a lot of patronage, wouldn’t they? Surely enough patronage to offset the higher salary costs?

Daniel

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Arnold Winkelried

So it’s OK to not tip the delivery guy if I’m not happy with the order? I thought I heard people say in this thread that he’s being compensated for using his own car and his own gas. Wouldn’t he be using his own car and his own gas even if the chef makes a mistake on my pizza?

In that case. yes. That way he’ll go back and put the screws to the person who made the mistake. In some places that I’ve worked at/frequented, the person who screws up has to make good to the deliverer.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@duffer

Uh, weren’t we talking about delivery drivers?

I was talking about tipping in general.

Tipping the grocery bagger?!?

You mean you don’t? Why not?

The rest of your post seems to be that people work harder when they have to scrounge for tips. I’m sure that’s true. But I’m also sure that it would be the same in any industry where you underpay people and say that you get the difference between that and a “regular” salary if you work extra hard.

[Loopydude]

It would be just swell if we paid waitrons a living wage, and hence this wasn’t so much of an issue, now would’n’ it. Ah, utopia…

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Well, widget-makers are not a service industry. They do not encounter the customer directly. There’s not a tradition of their being paid via tips, a tradition strong enough and well-enough established to make it possible for them to make a living in this fashion.

So it’s the Tevye reason again.

That people still go into busking, when there are alternate paths for making money by playing music.

Hey, I see a bunch of migrant workers in Central California where they make sub-standard wages, have minimal bathroom breaks, and work long hours at crappy jobs. That system must work really well too!

If your model is so good, surely there would be a market for it.

Yes, because the free market always determine the best business model. If it weren’t for those pesky unions, we’d still be working on Saturdays with no paid vacations! The socialists have ruined America, I tell you!

[smiling_bandit]

I tip people who actually help me or do something significant. Delivery I tip for if I wish it, Which I usually do, but no promises. Of course, most places around here pay milage, so I’m rather less generous. But tipping is for people who give me good service,. Bringing my pizza around 45 minutes after I ordered it isn’t service. That’s just doing the job. Nobody tops me for taking care of their houses.

[Miller]

@Arnold Winkelried

Tell me, are you sorry that workers on the assembly line are paid an hourly range instead of being paid X cents per widget they produce?

To a certain extent, isn’t that hourly wage already tied to how many widgets they make? They don’t get ten cents per widget, but the worker who cranks out 10,000 widgets a day is, in theory, going to get more raises more often than the worker who only cranks out 5,000. Food service is unique from most other industries in that the product itself (the customers) can serve as a barometer for how good the worker’s effort was, and reward accordingly.

Oh, another reason not to scrap the current tip system? 90% of the food servers in the country would quit. You’re talking about a job that combines the worst aspects of physical labor and public interaction. You’re not going to get many people willing to do that for minimum wage, and even if you pay well above that level (which might not be financially feasible for the restaurant, even with increased prices) you’ve lost the incentive for really good service. If the server is getting a regular hourly wage, why should they go the extra mile for the customer? They’re taking the same check home regardless.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Loopydude

It would be just swell if we paid waitrons a living wage, and hence this wasn’t so much of an issue, now would’n’ it. Ah, utopia…

A good service person can make a killing because of tips. A lousy one does not. It’s self-selecting.

Or, if we had it your way, we could have people who couldn’t care less treating you like shit in every establishment you go into rather than having to “earn” their “living wage”, which would make you have to pqay more to be treated like shit.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Arnold Winkelried

So it’s the Tevye reason again.

Only one part of it is the Teyve reason.

Hey, I see a bunch of migrant workers in Central California where they make sub-standard wages, have minimal bathroom breaks, and work long hours at crappy jobs. That system must work really well too!

Are they taking those jobs instead of other, higher-paying jobs for which they’re qualified?

Yes, because the free market always determine the best business model. If it weren’t for those pesky unions, we’d still be working on Saturdays with no paid vacations! The socialists have ruined America, I tell you!

What are you even arguing at this point? I’m probably more pinko than you, but the folks I know who wait tables earn a helluva lot more money than I do in my once-salaried, now hourly position.

Daniel

[Arnold_Winkelried]

[QUOTE=Miller]
To a certain extent, isn’t that hourly wage already tied to how many widgets they make? They don’t get ten cents per widget, but the worker who cranks out 10,000 widgets a day is, in theory, going to get more raises more often than the worker who only cranks out 5,000.

[quote]
And you could do the same thing with waiters - raises go to the best waiter.

Food service is unique from most other industries in that the product itself (the customers) can serve as a barometer for how good the worker’s effort was, and reward accordingly.

The person best able to judge a worker’s performance should be the worker’s supervisor, not the guy off the street. If service is bad one day, how do I know what the cause is? Two of the other waiters called in sick and my guy is doing the work of three people? Or the cook is having a bad day?

Oh, another reason not to scrap the current tip system? 90% of the food servers in the country would quit. You’re talking about a job that combines the worst aspects of physical labor and public interaction.

The the magical free market will determine the wage at which servers should get paid.

If the server is getting a regular hourly wage, why should they go the extra mile for the customer? They’re taking the same check home regardless.

Because, like the widget maker, he wants the raises and the continued employment. Why should I, an office worker, try to make any extra effort? My salary is the same if I spend all day reading in the bathroom or sitting at my desk doing whatever it is I’m supposed to do.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Arnold, you’ve got a solution in search of a problem. Most servers that I know would hate the system you propose; most customers that I know would hate the system you propose.

I may be a socialist, but i know bad social engineering when I see it.

Daniel

[FinnAgain]

@duffer

At the end of the year my tax bill increased $138 because of this. The only way to fight it was to write out a daily record of the actual money I got in tips. I thought of doing it (making up the numbers, who the hell records that shit when you don’t think you have to?), and realized the possible fines and penalties weren’t worth it. I paid the extra money.

Then I started thinking about all those shitty tippers that kept trying to coax a free drink out of me. And I still get :mad: .

Exactly. I helped put myself through school working as a waiter for a while, and I know first hand that getting, or not getting tips can make a huge difference on whether or not you’re able to buy books, put gas in your car, etc…

[duffer]

@Arnold Winkelried

So it’s OK to not tip the delivery guy if I’m not happy with the order? I thought I heard people say in this thread that he’s being compensated for using his own car and his own gas. Wouldn’t he be using his own car and his own gas even if the chef makes a mistake on my pizza?

Well, this isn’t exactly a common occurance. Yes, drivers get stiffed when it’s not their fault. But for a business to declare an address a “no go” it takes some consistant fuckups. And if it’s that consistent I’m thinking the chef is out of there.

I’ve had times where an order was wrong. After tipping for the wrong order, I’ve never gotten the feeling the replacement was to be tipped as well. But like everyone I know up here, you tip anyway. Maybe it’s just a regional thing. I buy a $10 pizza, tip $3 and it’s wrong? Here’s what you do. Call the place back, be polite and profit.

These places are on tight profit margins. This is your Ace in the hole.

Call the place back and be polite. Subtlely mention the other place you call hasn’t messed up an order to this scale. (If your pizza simply came with an easily pickable topping you can take off, deal with it) If the main topping is rat tails, you have a gripe.

Most often (at least with the people in my neck of the woods) they’re not only send the new one out, they’ll credit another pizza to you. So when the guy comes out the second time, tip $5. Just to show you appreciate the service. And make sure the next pizza isn’t pissed in, as can happen if you’re a douchebag during the initial call-back.

And hold the original pizza out for him to take back. At least up here, no pizza parlor owner would dream of reselling a delivered pizza to another customer. BAM! You have two pizzas when you paid for one.

Also, you have another $10 pizza on tap whenever you want it. Gratis.

So now you have a $10 pizza you want, a $10 pizza you may or may not eat (I’m sure there’s someway you can figure out how to eat it) and a $10 pizza on ice. $30.

The delivery guy has just made $8 in profit and gazes at your address the way Tom Cruise gazes at psychosis. He’s rolling through life, you’re coming way out ahead and you never left the house. Everyone is doing the work for you. Good times.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Are they taking those jobs instead of other, higher-paying jobs for which they’re qualified?

No, those guys probably weren’t offered other high-paying jobs. So I guess they deserve the salary they get. Since you mention this in conjunction with the music buskers, you must mean that those music buskers were offered a job in the local symphony orchestra but turned it down because they preferred playing in the subway?

What are you even arguing at this point?

I’m disagreeing with your argument that since the free market has determined that waiter tips make the restaurant workers work harder and benefit restaurant owners, then it’s obviously the best way for waiters to get paid.

The folks I know who wait tables earn a helluva lot more money than I do in my once-salaried, now hourly position.

Really? How much are they making? And do they declare all the amount they earn from tips to the I.R.S.?

[dnooman]

@FinnAgain

I may’ve missed this point somewhere, but I figured it deserves to be repeated even if I missed it: waiters and delivery folks are taxed based on their projected tips. And if you they report a figure that’s under the standard figure for their line of work, they may even have their records audited. In short, if you’re not tipping you’re taking money directly from your waiter/delivery guy that he’s going to have to pay out of his own pocket come tax time.

And you’re being a jerk.

True. Also worth repeating is that delivery charges are deceptive. The driver may recieve all, part or none of it. Usually they get a small part from what I’ve seen. I was a driver at a pizza joint in high school that offered free delivery. They paid the drivers .50 per run to cover gas and mileage (wear and tear). I guess the IRS calculated something like .30/mile at the time, as compensation for using one’s own vehicle. I think this was done so that drivers did not have to write off expenses come tax time, since they had already been compensated and taxed.

Anyways, the company decided to start charging $1.50 for delivery, and started giving us .75 per delivery. Both customers and drivers were pissed. We were getting the extra .25, or 1/6th of the charge. Some customers thought the charge all went to us and stopped tipping. We were not upset at these customers because their assumption was reasonable, but our incomes did decrease overall. Still some customers continued to tip. We would have gladly given back that .25 if they had rescinded the delivery charge.

Oh, and the company forbade us from discussing tipping with the customers (this included clarification of the delivery charge and how much goes where, I asked). We informed customers that asked anyways.

So, if there’s a delivery charge, ask the person taking your order how much goes to the driver. If that sort of thing concerns you.

I usually tip $2 plus whatever change is left for standard deliverys. If the guy shows up extra fast, or seems to be going the extra mile, I add a buck or two. If the driver is surly or an ass, off comes a dollar. I can’t remember the last time I had to stiff a driver.If you tip $3 or more every time, (this varies with cost of living in certain areas) your order is usually going to get special attention, and may even be fought over at the store.

Hope this helps.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Most servers that I know would hate the system you propose; most customers that I know would hate the system you propose.

Of course! The servers you know go into a system where they know they have to depend on tips. If you talked to servers in Switzerland, you would see that most of the servers I know prefer not having to depend on tips, but like the regular salary better. But then that’s what they expected when they took the job.

@duffer

Yes, drivers get stiffed when it’s not their fault.

Which is why the tipping system is not a good one.

[Otto]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

If you insist on using words in a Humpty-Dumpty-like fashion, then you might make Derrida happy, but I won’t really be able to debate with you.

Lord knows I live to please Derrida. I seriously don’t understand how you can think that demanding something that’s supposed to be voluntary as a conditon of service is anything but extortionate.

Out of curiosity, what limit would you place on the seller here? What if everyone in the place were tipping 15% (which seems to be acceptable to those in the thread who favor tipping) and the seller announced that he would no longer accept delivery orders unless the buyer agreed up front to tip 20%? What about 40%? Why is the store owner even a party to any social contract between the food recipient and the delivery driver at all?

@LHOD

Why should you be able to do this?

Why should I be able to buy food from a restaurant at the price the restaurant has set for it? Are you really asking me that? Are you drunk?

@Miller

Otto, is this the same office where someone swiped your iPod? Did they ever catch that guy?

Yes it is, and they didn’t even bother to look.