I just wonder why God has to be portrayed as a shallow neurotic busybody: “Ewwww, look! they’re doing something I don’t like, stop them, stop them!”.
(What I believe to be) my experience of God’s character and nature does not give me the above impression at all, oh yes, I know that ‘God’s Word’ says this and that, but we never did get to the bottom of why we need to treat the Bible as the be all and end all, did we?
They’ve made God into a petty, jealous demon who delights in torturing animals that disobey their training. They’ve turned Jesus into a gargoyle who salivates lustily for damned souls as he guards the gate to hell. They’ve locked the Holy Spirit into a weathered old book of curses and condemnations.
It breaks my heart. 
Okay, now I see.
His4ever is the only correct christian here. She has the truth, and everyone who disagrees with her is not a real christian, you see.
Its all clear now.
The word ‘subjective’ just doesn’t exist; try looking it up if you don’t believe me, you won’t find it.
His4ever, there is a difference between “knowing” and “believing”.
You believe them, but you don’t know, for one hundred percent, sure.
Now that I’ve incinerated half my living room . . .
Please excuse the hijack folks, but I’ve decided against making this a Pit thread.
His4Ever, the couple in question are also active, practicing Wiccans. This means in your book they are completely and utterly damned to hell anyway. What makes it worse, again, by your standards is that they once were Fundamentalist Christians who were even 7-day Creationists. They left the church in part because of the behaviour of their fellow Christians.
Their choice to open their marriage was an extreme step taken to preserve their marriage. By the grace of God, it worked. I have seen the love they have for each other and I have a great deal of respect for the fact that they were willing to do whatever it took to preserve the sanctity of their marriage. You, my dear, have been married three times. Even without what you said about my friends, that implies to me that you do not treat marriage as something sacred, but rather something disposable, whatever you may say.
Their morality, the fate of their souls is not your concern. That’s a good thing, too. You wouldn’t drive them further from Christianity, although you have driven others away. In some ways, they understand you better than I do because they were once a lot more like you. They are also dearer to me than any other two people on the face of the earth, with the possible exception of my parents. I knew you wouldn’t approve of them, and I’m not asking you too, any more than I would ask you to fly to the moon. I am saying that their morality is no concern of yours and by their actions they have shown far more respect for marriage than you have by yours. Please do not ever think to pass judgement on them again.
Sorry about the hijack, all, but I did need to address this.
CJ
Yes thank you for asking His4ever.
I appreciate it if you know what I mean. 0887
Thank you, Lilairen, you have a very good point.
H4E, if you haven’t left yet, I have another question. It’s a simple one, without ambiguous genitalia. If H4E is truly gone, and she’s already answered this question elsewhere, could someone provide me with a link?
The question is this: suppose you have two gay men who love each other very much, even to the point that they would die for each other. Although they cannot get a legally recognized marriage, they have a private ceremony in which they pledge to spend the rest of their lives together.
All goes well for 20 years or so, until they see the light and convert to Christianity.
What should they do? Should they remain married and ask God for forgiveness, or should they get a divorce?
I find this very interesting. Does His4Ever support the US Constitution? This is a document which by acknowledging that different faiths need to coexist peacefully, also sees that different moral judgements of the same act can be made in good faith.
Hopefully, His4ever will stay away from this thread,
Ben, you are asking for the christian point of view, correct?
Before I can answer that, can you make a Biblical case for the idea that God recognizes or accepts a homosexual marriage as a legitimate marriage?
I am not trying to fight or be sarcastic, I am sincerely intersted in how this case can be made, because everything I have read in the Bible very clearly condemns homosexuality.
So what Biblical support do you have for the legitimacy of homosexual marriage?
=======================================
And once you’re forgiven for past sin, it’s gone. So leave His4ever alone and quit harping on her prior marriages. She screwed up, sinned by getting divorced, sinned by getting remarried, did it again, and she’s forgiven for it. I believe divorce is not the right answer, because that is further sin. She needs to stay where she is and be faithful to her current husband, and that’s it.
Jersey, I do not believe that she sinned by remarrying; I think that Jesus gave that command to prevent casual, ditch-the-guy/girl-because-the-spark-isn’t-there-anymore divorces (which Jews of His day were as prone to seek, and seek out legal justification for doing, as people today are). And I’ve said that, repeatedly. What I do not get, and hope that you’ll explain without seeing this as an “us-vs.-them” sniper expedition, is how she is able to suggest that others need to follow the exact letter of the Biblical law, while seeing a way to bypass it and remain married to her present husband, given that Jesus says that people who do that sort of thing are committing adultery. (I’ve given my rationale for why she isn’t above, but I suspect that that won’t satisfy letter-of-Scripture aficionados – and you are either one of the latter or understand them far better than I do, based on previous posts.)
It’s that dichotomy between insisting on literal application of the words of Scripture to the condition of others and somehow finding a loophole for herself that have gotten a lot of people outraged with her.
And, yes, I do agree with Fletcherian situation ethics. What most people of a conservative bent don’t get is that Fletcher – and I – suggest that there’s a strict, every-moment-of-your-life moral compulsion to act in accordance with the Two Great Commandments, and that the “other” law is not thrown out, it’s cast into a quasi-constitutional framework by that. Just as it’s perfectly legal for a given state to pass a law, provided that that law’s language or application does not violate the U.S. or state constitution’s guarantees of human rights (and that the state is acting within its legal power to legislate), so the law of Scripture functions within the Law of Love as guidelines to the showing of loving behavior. In the example His got upset about, virtually never is adultery a proper, loving act, and hence usually it’s a sin – but not because it’s Commandment VII of the Ten, rather because it’s a violation of a lifelong commitment made by two people to each other in the sight of God. Scripture itself identifies one case where, in Old Testament times and in that culture, it was appropriate for a husband to “commit adultery” – the begetting of a child in behalf of his deceased, childless brother. It is, as it were, an exception to the rule. Fletcher identifies a case where a woman was able to free herself and her husband from a Nazi concentration camp by conceiving a child with the aid of a cooperative camp guard – and they were released to care for the child. (I don’t recall the specifics – but the comment was that the child was considered very precious by both “legal” parents, because he/she was the instrument of their freedom.)
Bottom line: I don’t care whether His4Ever married a third time – or rather, I do care, because I like her and want her to be happy in a loving marriage, unlike her first. But I insist that she cannot have it both ways – claim God’s mercy for herself and refuse to extend it to others.
Just one question to add into the mix: I’m relatively confident that you and Joe are of the firm opinion that two gay men cannot “marry” each other – that it’s a religious impossibility, what the Catholics would term a “void” marriage, like one between a brother and sister adopted out and raised by separate families with no knowledge of each other, who meet, fall in love, and marry, and then find out the truth about their blood relationship. But I’d like your opinion-answer on another question: In your view, what does God think of the promises they’ve made to each other? I know you don’t think that He approves of their marrying, but what (do you think) He thinks of their agreement to love and support each other and refrain from sex with anyone other than each other?
I’d really like to look for an understanding of each other’s points of view – I hope that you and Joe recognize that CJ and I, and others, don’t hold to an “anything goes” morality, but to one that is very strict on what is expected of oneself, merely hard to presuppose in the way that looking up Scripture on a given hypothetical circumstance is easy to presuppose. The question is, what action should I take to show the greatest love of God and man, taking into account all the details of the circumstances in which I find myself? And then, no matter the cost, go and do what action answers that question.
And, realizing that His finds it difficult to recognize sarcasm,
my suggestion that she needs to immediately get a divorce to get herself right with God was not serious – it was a sarcastic remark intended to illustrate for her the logical inferences of her “Bible-based” position. Like you, I think her proper action is to remain true to her husband and rejoice in the love they share. But I’d add to that that she needs to learn to show mercy as God’s mercy has been shown her in His leading her to a man with whom she can share that loving relationship. And that, I hope you’ll forgive me for insisting, she has been failing to do around here – which is precisely why she was Pitted and why people harp on her remarriage.
I have nothing but respect for the Bible-based and loving Christian walk you and Joe exhibit – knowing he’s working on controlling his temper, I have him on my prayer list, asking the Holy Spirit to help him in his efforts, and to enable him to bring out the nice-guy Joe he usually is in these religious debate threads as well as in GQ and Cafe Society, where he’s already showing it quite well. (And I hope that doesn’t sound supercilious – I have faults aplenty too, and am simply stating that I’m holding up a brother in prayer, not saying that I’m anything He’s not.)
I look forward to seeing your answers to Ben and me.
Peace. 
Thanks, Poly. I appreciate the kind words. It can be really difficult to be kind to people, as I’m sure you know. I’m at the point where I’m trying to force myself to be nice when I don’t want to, because it’s what I’m supposed to do. [whine] “Come on, God, I don’t WANT to love my enemy!! But God!! Oh, all right.” [/whine]
I’m sure you know where I’m coming from.
Sorry for the hijack.
Joe_Cool, I, for one, am grateful for this hijack! I know I sometimes do come across as wishy-washy because of my emphasis on “love your neighbor”, but in reality I consider it the toughest standard you could impose. Believe me, I’ve done my share of whining to God about that myself!
“Grant us strength and courage” is part of one of my church’s closing prayers. May God grant both of us strength and courage to be kind to those who disagree with us, because speaking only for my self, I need it!
CJ
“love your neighbour as yourself” is indeed a tall order.
It doesn’t (IMHO) mean “apply the same rigid standards to your neighbour as you apply to yourself” - that interpretation would be childish and simplistic to say the least - it means “be as understanding, patient, caring, tolerant, forgiving etc toward your neighbour as you are toward yourself”.
We seem to have an almost infinite capacity for rationalising our own actions and living with ourselves; we very rarely consider our own behaviour so reprehensible that we refuse to deal with ourselves for a week, or get so cross with our own stupidity that we send ourseves to our room until we learn some manners.
YMMV: the new Tetragrammaton!
Pronounced “Yahm-mev.”
Or, if you’re Christian, “Jemmovah.”
unless he’s a convicted pedophile priest. Then it’s called Karma.
I got a real laugh out of this!