F#@% these union busters

I’m union, and damn proud of it. This demonization of unions is simply crazy to me - are people really that unaware of pre-union working conditions?
It’s late, and I don’t have the time to write a better op worthy of a nice rant rating, but, well, fuck 'em, all these Kochers.
But, while I know the importance of nftt, I’m not opposed to a highjacking here towards the Yahoo defectors that seem to be ever growing here.

Yes, they are really that unaware. I grew up in a GOP corner of Missouri, & I was never taught about the labor movement’s history in school.

Unions were necessary in the days before basic human rights became enshrined in law.
They strike me as something of an anachronism now.

Personally, I’ve never been in one, never felt the need. I’m happy that I’m able to negotiate my own terms.

What I really object to is the accepted opinion of some union members that, by default, any dispute they have must be just.
i.e. that worker grievances are valid, and that management concerns are not. Having been on both sides of the fence I think it is wise to judge each case on its own merits and give my support accordingly.

I support the right to unionise or not and I expect the same courtesy.
What I am vehemently opposed to is anyone telling me what my opinion should be or where my loyalties should lie, or when I should work, or what line I should cross.

I look at the language and behaviour of strikers to those still working and I see far too much intimidation and hate. It looks and feel like mob rule and that by itself is enough to turn me against unions.
If you choose to withdraw your labour and take part in peaceful protest, fine. If you indulge in the behaviour above you are a thug and a bully.

Unions are not obsolete. If the pressures they bring to bear aren’t present, companies will simply eat into worker compensation and benefits until they’re the bare minimum possible using the full force of corporate presence and corporate associations to do so.

Unions are part of what allows you to negotiate good deals. When unions go away, virtually everyone goes back to owing their soul to the company store. It will take time of course.

Corporations haven’t many places they can go for productivity improvements. They’re outsourcing as fast as they can and they’ve already done what they can to reduce costs in other areas. So the next place to feed on to generate “productivity” is salaries and benefits.

It’s short term exploitation to get better numbers on the balance sheet for the shareholders. It works in the short term because “everyone’s doing it”.

No. They understand that they can stand against modern union wrongs without being transported to the 19th-century.

The unions’ largest problem right now is that far more people have experienced being wronged or inconvenienced by a labor union than have being helped by one.

A “What if?” - What if unions vanished tomorrow?
Would there suddenly be a return to children working 70+ hours a week in the coal mines for $1 a day?
I’d think the Dept of Labor [Mine Safety & Health Administration (MSHA), Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA), Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), Wage & Hour Division (WHD)] plus each of the states’ Labor Depts would also have to go away before there’d be a return to pre-union conditions.

I do grasp that unions were the major factor in bettering working conditions at a time in history and that many of the unions’ goals & ideas were incorporated into legislation which benefit us all.

So fight my ignorance on what protections unions now provide that are not provided by Federal and state laws & regulations.

No. The return would be slow.

Regulations and agencies are fine as long as they are obeyed and respected. People, being people, have shown that, given the opportunity to disobey rules, laws, and custom without any adverse effects, will readily do so. That’s why industry self-regulation is the sterling success it is.
If unions suddenly ceased to exist, violations wouldn’t start tomorrow, and they wouldn’t happen in the same way, striking at the same benefits. But these incursions, I have no doubt, would occur, because there have been plenty of examples of such things in the past.
This is what really burns me about people who say that unions serve no purpose today, and that agencies and laws perform the same purpose – they’re manifestly not the same. Without the threat of collective action in the form of strikes, work slowdowns, and the like, companies haven’t got the incentive to actually come to the bargaining table and do the things that they promised, but frequently didn’t, do.Unions put teeth into the laborer’s side of the deal.
If you think that companies always abide by the rules, go and ask Exxon/Mobil for the rest of the funds they didn’t pay up after being ordered to by the courts in the wake of the Exxon Valdez affair.

Have you noticed that the same people who are against unions are *also *against government regulation? Doesn’t that tell you something about their motivations?

Then unions would slowly gain relevancy again.

The problem is simple: unions have pushed pay and benefits for their workers to unsustainable levels. With the current budget crises that are affecting almost every state, they need to deal with the issue now, not later, or else we’re going to be seeing states declare bankrupty and simple void their labor contracts and dictate terms unilaterally.

Who said that the federal dept.s have to go away? Do they have enough inspectors to control each company? Because if not, then companies can decide to screw the employees and get away with it.

Do you know how many ways there are for companies to screw the employees right now, with all those wonderful (really just minimum) protections in place? Have you ever looked at the working conditions in Latin America and Asian 3rd world countries? Many of them have introduced very progressive labour protection laws - only nobody gives a shit about those laws. E.g. a law in Brazil required a lot of protection of workers that were employeed more than 10 years at the same company. So what did the companies do? In the 9th year, all employees were laid off, and after a few months, re-hired; the count started at zero again.

Or in the US: mandatory work hours that go beyond 40 hrs., because the employees “volunteer” - after the manager told them “we need to finish this/ if you don’t work weekends, you aren’t a teamplayer, and we’ll let you go and hire somebody else.”

In Germany, one drugstore chain was notorius for hiring only elder people > 40 years, and ex-cons. Why? Not because they wanted to give them a second chance: because they knew that these people would eat shit with a smile if asked to keep their job, because they couldn’t find a job anyplace else. So these stores had the highest record of robberies, because there was no telephone to call the police with. Saves the company a few Euros per month, you know. Employees were treated like army recruits in the US by managers, that is, told to scrub tiles with a tooth-brush and similar, which is of course illegal treatment. But nobody complained, so all those nice rules didn’t come to bear.

In the US, most labour protection laws theoretically apply to illegal immigrants, too, right? Esp. those OSHA about safe workplaces, not breathing noxious fumes etc. How many illegals will complain to a federal board if threatened with being reported to the INS and kicked out?

So unions certainly are needed, even today, even with federal laws and controls.

Because when most people think of unions, they think of busses and trains shutting down so that workers can make more money for providing the same crappy service while fairs continue to rise.

They think of companies unable to adapt or modernize until they are forced to either outsource their entire operation or go out of business.

They think of workers who can get away with laziness, incompetence and waste because union regs require 3 employees to change a lightbulb.

I think most people don’t want to let it happen again, even if there’s already a method to stop it.

If human nature is set in heartless stone, and all authority inevitably leads to oppression lest it be tempered by union action, is that why unions themselves have become self-serving corporations, maximizing profits and minimizing service? Unions don’t care if they kill off companies or even entire industries, so long as they show their power to do so. Yes, they are regulated, but they have no accountability to production. And production is where the money comes from, before it can be squabbled over.

I had workers from three different unions in one management position that I had. I found that union reps were generally easy to work with, particularly if they were informed in advance that a problem was brewing with a member. We were able to terminate employees fairly easily when infractions were clear cut and actionable. The only problem we had was that the project manager was a complete loser when it came to contract negotiations. Instead of allowing people with better negotiating skills to handle the job, he proceeded to give away the store. Instead of attempts at union-busting, people like this Walker asshole should try hiring someone who can negotiate a solid deal and say “no” when it’s required. But reasonableness doesn’t seem to be in anyone’s tool box these days.

There’s your answer, there. Humans act in self-interest, film at 11. But make no mistake, the anti-unionists would fully support the anti-union laws and bloodshed of the turn of the century against people who had the unmitigated temerity to look out for their own interest as well as the owning class did, and “Just Ask Questions” to imply that the organizers were some sort of commies who brought on the crackdown themselves.

I shop at a non-union market and save money doing it. If the other stores want to have their union, fine. I’m just not paying for it.

I’m honestly ignorant of this having happened. Has it?

My family and I have had nothing but trouble with unions, ranging from threats to kidnap my brother sister and I back in the very early 60s [the family business was knitting mills] in an attempt to force unionizing. Later, in a company my dad and i both worked for, I can remember trucks coming back from deliver runs [both short and long distance] with bullet holes in them. And I can remember being informed that I had to go on strike because some damned MOPAR plant in the area was unsatisfied with the outragous wages and bennies they were getting, while they had never done anything for me except collect dues - and I wasn’t pissed at MY company [but because someone had been union and went to work in my shop, everybody then had to go union.]

Sorry, nothing but grief from unions.

Is that what happened in non-union industries like IT?