Factual Answers Only: Science and the Soul?

[naita]

@Bad_Romance

There was a experiment done, though I can’t remember it’s name, were a scientist weighed people on the brink of death, and then after they had died.They then repeated this with dogs. the weight of the dogs stayed the same whereas the humans were all 4 grams lighter. Makes you think.

Makes me think you need to come up with a site. There’s one well known experiment, discussed in the 21 grams-thread linked to earlier in the thread, claiming a weight difference with some not very good data.

Looking at snopes I see that this experiment did dogs as a “reference group”: Was the Weight of a Human Soul Determined to Be 21 Grams? | Snopes.com

Still, the humans weren’t all 4 grams lighter, the experiment was not well designed or large enough to draw any conclusions, and it only makes you think if it’s misrepresented or you’re desperate for physical evidence of a soul.

[Xema]

@LSLGuy

Right now SIDS is a catchall diagnosis, used when we don’t have the tools to determine the exact cause of a particular death.

Right - it’s a misleading term. Instead of being an explanation of the cause of death, it’s actually a failure to explain. It likely includes more than one cause, and possibly a whole bunch.

[Machine_Elf]

@Bad_Romance

There was a experiment done, though I can’t remember it’s name, were a scientist weighed people on the brink of death, and then after they had died.

Hmmmm. It’s unfortunate you don’t remember his name. If only there were a way we could find more information about that experiment…
Hmmm…
Wait, I know! Let me Google that for you.

You’re thinking of this guy?

21 grams experiment

@Wikipedia

Although generally regarded either as meaningless or considered to have had little if any scientific merit, MacDougall’s finding that the human soul weighed 21 grams has become a meme in the public consciousness. It lent itself to the title of the film 21 Grams.

It’s extremely doubtful that his industrial scale was sensitive enough to give reliable measurements (to sense a change of 1 gram on a 160-pound adult human lying in a 100-pound bed is a sensitivity of 1 part in about 120,000, pretty impressive for 1907); heck, even Snopes says his scale was only sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce (about 6 grams).

Note also his project only measured six patients. Snopes goes on to report that his measurements of those six patients varied widely, and in two of the patients, he regarded the measurements as invalid. That leaves just four mass-change measurements, which varied wildly:

-3/4 ounce
-1.5 ounces
-1.5 ounces
-3/8 ounce

Not exactly a statistically powerful study, and one that nobody in the intervening 100 years has bothered to try replicating.

[HorseloverFat]

SIDS is a syndrome. We know the symptoms and signs, but do not know the cause. There are many syndromes. Some of which, in the past were syndromes, but now are understood to have a cause.

I dont see how a syndrome supports your question. Saying ‘people die without us knowing exactly why opens up metaphysical mumbo-jumbo’ is being irrational.

>How does medical science explain what separates us from a $5 bag of chemicals?

You are a bag of chemicals. Its just when youre alive they are undergoing various processes and interactions that we call alive. Pour vinegar over baking soda. See the reaction? Thats like being alive. When it stops, its like being dead.

[Bytegeist]

@HorseloverFat

Pour vinegar over baking soda. See the reaction? Thats like being alive.

And with the same odors too.

Sometimes.

[garygnu]

@Zoe

According to your link, “clinically dead” is not truly dead.

Wiki: Clinical death is now seen as a medical condition that precedes death rather than actually being dead.

Wow, Mr. T, that’s a long time. It’s a wonder that they didn’t give up on you!

So Miracle Max was right?

[YogSothoth]

@Bad_Romance

There was a experiment done, though I can’t remember it’s name, were a scientist weighed people on the brink of death, and then after they had died.They then repeated this with dogs. the weight of the dogs stayed the same whereas the humans were all 4 grams lighter. Makes you think.

I’m not fat, I just have a big soul

[_cc]

@Bad_Romance

There was a experiment done, though I can’t remember it’s name, were a scientist weighed people on the brink of death, and then after they had died.They then repeated this with dogs. the weight of the dogs stayed the same whereas the humans were all 4 grams lighter. Makes you think.

Yes, it certainly does. Unfortunately it would not be appropriate to post exactly what it makes me think. Children might be reading this thread.

[shiftless]

When my car died a few years ago the mechanic couldn’t tell me the exact cause. I asked him what was the difference between my car and a pile of scrap metal and he couldn’t answer me! Perhaps the OP believes my car has a soul? What about my old clock-radio? That thing used to work and now it doesn’t … OMG, I’m beginning to worry that I have neglected the spiritual health of my appliances.

[CalMeacham]

I’m not fat, I just have a big soul

Truly you are a mahatma.

[md2000]

SO basically people are saying: “Life” means the parts are generally working. Life is a whole series of reactions that keep the bag of chemicals in a relatively steady state.

When everything is working, food gets turned into nourishment, oxygen is absorbed and CO2 exhaled by breathing, the heart uses some of that to pump the rest around the body for use by the rest of the body. SOme of that is used by the chest muscles to keep breathing going, some by the brain to produce the neurlogical electrical impulses that keep other parts going.

When any of these systems fail, the cascade effect can cause the whole system to eventually grind to a halt. No oxygen, no food, not enough water - all can cause parts of the body to stop functioning, which in turn cause more to fail. If not restored in time, the chemical effects of this failure become irreversible. If reversed but too late, some parts may not function properly.

What is the seat of someone’s personality? Experience and the history of brain-damage victims has given us a rough map of what parts of the brain are responsible for what functions. Damage this part, you cut off higher reasoning; this part, you cannot see; this part and lose control over this function, etc.

As a result, most medical ethicists agree that a person is actually dead when they no longer have the electrical function of their neurons. Whether that is reversible or not, and for how long, depends on a lot of factors. Drowning in cold water can mean you may revive up to an hour later; the younger, the more resilient, etc. If you com back with brain damage, are you still the same person?

What makes someone a person? If you can really answer that there is a seat at a prestigious university waiting for you.

SIDS was, IIRC, generally attributed to a form of suffocation (among many unrealsted reasons); about 15 years ago they found that the incidence was drastically reduced by not leting children sleep on their stomach. Nothing magical about it - for some reason, some system stops. Like any other death cause, it then cascades into total system failure. If not found and reversed in time, it is permanent.

So there - if a person might be revived, even temporarily, why would the “soul” “depart” and a certain moment? Just to journey that long corridor with alight at the end? Who knows. As pointed out, there’s not been a serious collection of definite studies of any weight loss.

Besides, from a pure physics standpoint - what extra weight? You are the same bag of chemicals before and after. Every atom has a particular weight. Added up, it’s your body mass weight. If you are going to rewrite the fundamental laws of physics, better be prepared to explain how.

Physics basically says “if you can’t devise an experiment to test it, it’s not science”.

[The_Seventh_Deadly_Finn]

@Joe Frickin Friday

Only because no one has bothered to instrument a baby and watch him die.

All right! Looks like I’ve found myself a thesis topic!

[CurtC]

@md2000

If you com back with brain damage, are you still the same person?

It’s according to what you mean when you use the word “person.” If a person is the continuity of the way the brain works and stored states (memories), then that near-drowning victim would be the same person as before, as long as he retains memories and his brain functions basically the same. Another point of view is that I’m not the same person I was five minutes ago. Both are valid ways of defining the word.

What makes someone a person? If you can really answer that there is a seat at a prestigious university waiting for you.

I don’t think so - we know the basics of what happens, all that’s left is to specifically define how pre-existing words should refer to the edges of new knowledge. It’s not a question of what we know, it’s just what do we want the word “person” to mean?

Besides, from a pure physics standpoint - what extra weight? You are the same bag of chemicals before and after. Every atom has a particular weight. Added up, it’s your body mass weight. If you are going to rewrite the fundamental laws of physics, better be prepared to explain how.

Good point. I guess MacDougall must have believed that the “soul” was made up of 12,642,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 protons and neutrons, plus the appropriate number of electrons.