I just saw this in a friend’s LJ and I am outraged and a lot of other words I just can’t manage to actually say or type right now. In fact I can’t even come up with a really good pitting, but I am sure my fellow Dopers can help me out here.
A summary: The proposed legislation will make is a Class 1 misdemeanor if women fail to report a miscarriage to the authorities within 12 hours.
I see absolutely no reason for this law other than a way to move toward banning abortion. There is just no excuse or justification to treat a woman who has suffered a loss like this as a criminal akin to statutory rapists, arsonists, and stalkers. Just when you think the politicians can’t come up with any more heinous violations of personal privacy, they do. This may just be proposed in one state right now but if this sort of thing passes it won’t be long before other states join in. This is my first pit thread, was I supposed to say “fuck” a lot?
I haven’t checked out the links…but what would be the point?
Not only the whole anti-abortion thing this smacks of, but why make it even worse for women who legitimately have a miscarriage and wanted the child? Their hearts are already broken anyway, let’s make it public.
I’m all for disobeying this law, if it goes through. How could you enforce it anyway? Being completely gross here, the proof usually gets flushed, unless the woman is far along in the pregnancy. Many pregnancies get miscarried and the woman doesn’t even know she was pregnant.
I really don’t think abortion has much to do with this. It seems to me motivated more by the stories of babies found dead in dumpsters, or the recent case where a teenaged couple decided to abort a pregnancy six months along by beating her in the belly with a souvenir baseball bat.
I’ll reserve judgement on whether the law is needed.
I’m pro-choice politically and pro-life personally and I gotta say: WTF??? This just boggles my mind. What on earth could possibly be gained by trying to bully a woman into reporting a miscarriage? Would the M.D. be punished by not reporting an office visit from a patient who suffered a miscarriage? As a liberal Republican, I’m just so disheartened by the ultra-conservative turn my party has taken in recent years
The commentary in the second link goes into the fact that they can see no point in this, they have contacted the congressman’s office for some more information on his justification for this and received no response.
I suppose the only way to really follow up would be in those cases where women later seek medical care. If they waited longer than 12 hours then that makes it a crime which doctors and hospitals would probably have to report. It is rather insulting to these women who most likely wanted their baby or didn’t even know they were pregnant to infer that not reporting it means they were up to something “sinister”. This is just ridiculous.
I don’t have language strong enough, even for the Pit, for this.
The implications of this are staggering. What a waste of time and money for law enforcement and for the taxpayer. And what a slap in the face for women–is our menstrual discharge to be measured by a third party to ensure that we didn’t miscarry unknowingly? What of those miscarriages that occur in prison? Do those women go to Death Row or get life? WTF?
My God–how much control do these freaks want over the female body? How threatened are they by natural events?
This is evil.
If a baby is found dead in a dumpster is it really a miscarriage? It would most likely qualify under homicide statutes, anyway, unless the baby were born dead and just disposed of in an unfortunate manner* which could be determined by forensic pathologists. And don’t most states have those foetal murder laws specifically worded so as not to refer to abortion to prevent people from getting away with killing their wives/girlfriends and stomping the baby out as a bonus?
I really can’t get at the purpose behind this law either at all-not even as a pro-life thing. It just seems weird to me.
*And by unfortunate I mean disgusting but you know, some people are crazy.
Are you male? Then your judgment is not needed, thank you. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true.
Babies in dumpsters have nothing to do with miscarriages where the baby is not een recognizable as anything more than a lump of fetal tissue. And if birth control and sex ed was more prevalant, I know we would have less babies in dumpsters.
This is bizarre. I mean, why report to a law enforement agency?? I can kinda sorta see a “report to medical personnel” angle, if only to ensure the mother is OK and nothing malicious happened to force the miscarriage. Even a law like that would be overstepping the bounds of government intrusion and probably unenforcable anyway, but at least there’s a semi-coherent rationale behind it.
I can’t even think of what the point (sinister or benign) behind this law is.
It seems Virginia already has some laws on the book regarding miscarriages. It seems that for some reason Virginia wants to track the number of miscarriages that occur in the state. Adding this law it seems is to just ensure that miscarriages that happen at home are counted. Taking it in that context the proposal seems less bizzare.
Why Virginia needs to know about miscarriages happening within its borders is beyond me.
In the commentary an MD states that 30-50% of all miscarriages happen in the first 12 weeks–to many women who don’t even know they are pregnant.
There is NO valid public health reason for this law b/c of the above. Records are kept for stillbirths and miscarriages past 20 weeks gestation. VA already has laws on the books pertaining to ‘trashcan’ babies. IMO, whoever came up with this one, has never been pregnant or had anything to do with pregnancy–it makes no sense.
ITA that the way to decrease back alley AB’s etc is thru sex ed and BC.
As a healthcare provider–am I now liable to report this shit? I am required to report suspected child abuse/elder abuse etc–and now this?
Sadly, I think that VA is just the start–we will see this again–thru the Bible belt, no doubt.
All citizens, male or female, 18 years of age and over, may vote for representatives whose job it is to make the law. Male citizens may vote for or against representatives who may decide to approve or disapprove a “Violence Against Women Act.” Female citizens may vote for representatives who continue, or repeal, the requirement that only males are required to register for Selective Service.
Finally, I should not that the person proposing this bill, which may become law, is a male, and presumably was voted into office by voters that included males.
Your idea that being a male disqualifies a person from having a judgemtn – indeed, from having a key effect – on this issue is… pretty frickin stupid, since it’s obvious from the above that being male is no bar whatsoever.
Perhaps you meant that being male should disqualify a person from expressing or implementing his views. If so… too damn bad. It isn’t so, it isn’t going to BE so, and that’s that.
Perhaps you simply meant that you, personally, intend to ignore views on this subject unless expressed by a female. If that’s the case, it’s your privilege to do so, of course. However, I mentioned this concept of yours to my wife, who is, by all accounts, female, and she wishes me to relay the following sentiment: you’re wrong in thinking male viewpoints on the issue are valueless.
There are many people – many of them women – who believe that an unborn child is a human being, even when he or she resembles a “lump of fetal tissue.”
I agree. On the other hand, an egg can become fertilized, thus becoming a baby, pass through the fallopian tubes, and exit its mother’s body without implanting in her uterus and without her even being aware that she was a mother, if only for a while. Is this a “miscarriage”? If so, how can you report something you don’t know about?
eleanorigby (my favorite of our recent batch of new people, by the way, wrote
I can easily see having a miscarriage and not knowing it if I were using what I considered reliable birth control and not expecting to become pregnant. Women’s cycles aren’t the same month-to-month, and that’s especially true with some of the more commonly used forms of birth control. Could a woman be arrested for failing to report something she wasn’t aware of? If so, how can this be justified?
I know politicians have been known to write poorly thought out bills they don’t think will have a realistic chance of passing just to gain points with some parts of their constituencies. I suspect there have been a few bills banning flag burning which come under this heading. That may well be the case this time. At least, that’s what I’m hoping.
Well, it didn’t take long for this to degenerate into pitting of other posters for offhand comments.
This is absolutely not the same thing as babies left in dumpsters. This isn’t even the same thing as a doctor assisted abortion. This has nothing to do with at what stage do you consider an embryo or fetus to be a life. This is simply an invasion of privacy and a criminalization of something that shouldn’t be criminal. It implies that if a woman miscarried she must have done something to cause it and if she does not report it to the authorities then she definitely must be guilty. Nevermind that it’s traumatic, nevermind that she wanted the baby, nevemind that she hasn’t even had time to deal with the loss.
From the article in the second link:
It also goes on to say that doctors and funeral homes get 24 hours to file reports on fetal deaths that occur under the doctors care.
Miscarriages in the first trimester are quite common and often occur at home or before some women even realize they’re pregnant. It doesn’t mean that the mother did something wrong or induced it. Many women feel guilty about that anyway and blame themselves. This bill will only serve to further increase the trauma and guilt of such a loss. To punish women and criminalize this is simply heinous.
As stated, there are already laws about reporting fetal death after 20 weeks. There is no need or justification for this law.
Generally speaking, the answer is no. A crime must have both an actus reus - a guilty act - and a mens rea, or guilty mind. Without the requisite mental state, no crime exists.
But, in that case, since miscarriages happen spontaneously as a rule, without conscious intent or action on the part of the mother, surely this is a ridiculous law?
On the other hand, I seem to recall reading that having hot baths may increase the risk of miscarriages. I’m a fan of hot baths and use them to relieve muscle aches and stress, something I understand are part and parcel of pregnancy, especially the muscle aches. If I have a hot bath or two to relieve muscle aches then suffer a miscarriage would that be enough of an actus reus or mens rea to be applicable? I really am puzzled.
CJ
