This is an issue I have struggled with, and I am not trying to bait you. Please excuse what may seem to be a smartass reply when I say "Why not? " Why is one group of human beings deemed to be worthy of the notification of death, while another is not? At what point does it become proper or necessary to do so?
No, I think it’s true that this law would enable lawmakers to *say *that tracking was possible and practical, but that doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t possible or practical. For reasons mentioned in this thread, like first trimester miscarriages masked as late periods, and also for more distasteful reasons, like mothers who would rather no one knew they were pregnant and bury their fetus in the back yard. This can, does and will happen both in cases of spontaneous abortion (“miscarriage”) and induced abortion, whether pharmacologically or physically induced.
Anti-abortion laws do not stop abortion, they only stop access to medically safe and legal abortions.
If you’re talking about the sorts of people who would pass such a law, then unfortunately you have to… speak… slowly… and… use… small… words.
Or follow your instincts and bludgeon them to death, but we both know that usually doesn’t have the desired effect either.
I’ve been thinking about this thread for awhile now & I can’t think of a single rationalization that doesn’t involve something sinister & alarming.
Whose death am I requred to report now?
Anyone who’s born and dies, aren’t you? Or isn’t the funeral home, in the form of obtaining a death certificate? These things must be reported to your County Clerk’s Office, so that people can’t continue earning income and voting off their dead relative’s name and social security number.
Then why all the man bashing?
If that’s not your intent, then you’re doing a poor job of explaining yourself.
Let me ask you this – I’m a man not living in VA. Is it OK with you if I’m upset about this bill? Is it none of my business even if I do everything in my power to oppose it?
I am pretty sure that failure to report a death is a criminal offense but I could be wrong. To answer your question, at the very least I think you would be required to report any death of which you were the only one to have knowledge.
Are the lawmakers who proposed this just giving up all pretense of caring for the mother?
If an early-term fetus is miscarried when the mother is sitting on the toilet (not an unheard-of occurence, from my limited understanding) is she supposed to fish the bloody lump out of the bowl and drive it to the nearest ME for an autopsy?
If this law passes, who’s going to be the first cop to stand in front of a woman who just lost a late-term fetus to a miscarriage…a tragic and traumatizing event…and fucking arrest her because her first thought wasn’t to toss the fetus into a jumbo ziploc baggie and hoof it down to the nearest police station? Who’s going to be the first judge to impose jail time on such a woman?
Have these lawmakers lost their fucking minds?
Why not just register ever damned pregnancy in the state and put all pregnant women under 24-hour surveillance? That wouldn’t be too much more creepy or invasive.
I haven’t done any man bashing here–I have swapped some heated responses with Mr. Moto. Why on earth are you looking to me for approval for your emotions? I get the sarcasm, but it is misdirected.
Again-read my post–this is about a proposed bill that restricts women’s rights and invades their privacy. It also infringes on men’s rights. too, but that is not the focus of this thread. Nowhere have I said that this is none of your (or any man’s) business. Indeed, I think that this bill concerns everyone–regardless of gender, which I have stated several times.
levdrakon --LOL! ITA.
More specifically, in Illinois, any stillbirth or birth past the gestational age of 26 weeks requires that, upon death, a death certificate be prepared and submitted to Vital Statistics. In the case of a stillbirth, a birth certificate-like document called a certificate of stillbirth must also be offered to the mother. (Public Act 93-0578, amendment to the Vital Records Act).
Then I have no idea what your warning to men was all about. Like I said, you’re explaining yourself very well.
If it’s that important for men as well, then why is the focus of this thread only about women’s rights? I saw no disclaimer in any post stating what the focus of the thread would be. Who died and made you moderator?
Wouldn’t it be more constructive if we could talk about all of the implications of this bill?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure. Bush doesn’t want Roe overturned, and he can’t guarantee that anyone he appoints would do it anyway. Future presidents are going to want it overturned even less. Overturning it does nothing for them politically. They are already getting the votes of the anti-abortion rights people.
It wouldn’t make the law any better, though it might clear up a few lines in GD every once in a while.
We can debate that getting rid of a murder law won’t increase the number of murders. Would you then argue that the experiment is worthwhile so we can test that particular hypothesis, just to prove or disprove it? Stumbling across the proof might be interesting. Arranging the test is horrific.
Sure I would. Just like you would. I don’t care if people do the right thing for stupid reasons.
Consider: Some people might avoid stabbing me because they think God will punish them for it.
You think I want to convince that person that their belief is, in my opinion, stupid? No way, no how. I don’t care what their reasons for not stabbing me might include, just so long as Julie-no-stabby.
They’ll be chaining them to the bed while pregnant next. Just to make sure, y’know. Fetus rights and all that.
Pssst—I think we already are…
I’m not so sure I agree. Bush has said he wants to see the decision overturned. On what are you relying to form the conclusion that he doesn’t?
I agree with your example, but I’m not so sure it’s a valid analogy to the current situation.
However, since, as I say, I’m not in favor of the law myself, I’m not inspired to continue a Devil’s Advocate defense of it.
Again - agree with the example, but don’t accept it as a valid analogy. It’s acceptable to advance a dishonest argument under the duress of an illegal attempt on your life. This doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to advance a dishonest argument to win a debate on what sound public policy should be.
There is no obligation that I am aware of that requires a plain old citizen to report anything he or she witnesses. Obviously some people have jobs that require it of them (such as police officers and doctors) but not the general public.
If you have a statute or decision that mandates this sort of reporting, I’d love to see it.
Whynot: The Illinois statute you cited imposes that duty upon funeral directors and coroners only; it imposes no duties upon a mother.
He has said he wouldn’t have a litmus test for justice appointments. Why wouldn’t he? Either he’s lying and he would have a litmus test, or he isn’t lying and the abortion issue isn’t important enough.
It’s an interesting discussion, I think, but probably not entirely on point for this particular thread. Would you be interested in a more precise debate in a new thread?
But the argument isn’t dishonest until it’s proven false. Until then, it’s merely a guess.
And I would assume that most of us are okay with people holding lots of opinions that are based on faulty science so long as they end up agreeing with us!
But it does pre-suppose that we have to tell *someone *in a position to do something about it. What are the rules around having to call a coroner? If I miscarry at home at 30 weeks and am stupid enough not to go to the hospital, can I legally bury the fetus in a shoebox in my backyard, or do I have to call the coroner’s office or the hospital morgue or a funeral home? What about at 25 weeks? There’s another thread around here somewhere (the one about the souvenier baseball bat miscarriage) which seems to indicate that viability (26 weeks in IL) is the deciding factor - that at 26 weeks, I am legally required to call someone who’s licensed to dispose of human remains, who will then take care of a death certificate. Before viability, there is no legal requirement to do so. (And, in fact, I’ve helped three mothers bury their very early fetuses in the past year. Our intent was certainly not to perform an illegal act, but to give the mothers some peace and closure.)
I read through the entire IL death reporting statute and I could not find anything that mandates any private individual (not a funeral director or coroner) to report any death, including that of a fetus, to anyone in particular. However, I believe it is illegal to dispose of a dead fetus (or body) without the appropriate permits, and that’s where you’d get in trouble – not for failing to report the death, but for illegally disposing of a corpse, and since (presumably) the only way to legally dispose of one is to contact a funeral director or a coroner, the report will presumably be made in a timely fashion because, as a general rule, people don’t like having dead bodies laying about. In any case, the charge would be “improper disposal of a corpse”, not “failure to report a death” – and could only be levied against someone who took custody of the corpse. If you never had control of the corpse, you can’t be held responsible for the disposition of it.
OK, so I’m a little confused now. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me or simply clarifying that the answer to lee’s question “Whose death am I requred to report now?” is “You are required to report any death of a post-viable infant, child or adult to the coroner or a funeral home, and they will be required to obtain a death certificate?”
Sorry it took me a round-about way of getting here, but IANAL.