that is because his will was ***revealed *** to them - it further never dawns on them that his will may have been revealed differently to others - or that God - even in his revealed bible - is known to ‘confuse’ people in order to prevent them from becoming “like him” (Tower of Babel, anyone?)
I’m just now getting around to their new album, and this gem resounded…
Personal revelations from god never seem to bring back any useful information either, like telling us how to cure cancer or other diseases.
That’s quite a study, with lots to go over, so only briefly read a few parts for now. I’ve long suspected much of this with America especially doing so poorly in much of it. In general they said homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the 18 top democracies are overall higher with religious folk, I’m not sure why they can’t conclude at least with their study, that it has a negative correlation, but they said they are still not sure about causation, and more studying is still needed. At least it states that one can conclude that is not a given that religious societies are better, healthier, or more moral.
Anyway, I’m going to spend quite a bit of time on this, since these are many of the things I’ve been wanting to compare. Thanks for the link.
exactly - its always “God said he agrees with me - you all suck”
That’s my point: the universe doesn’t need a “place” for it to exist in.
When you say God must first have a place to exist in, you’re making the same error.
FWIW, I actually agree with much of what you say in these debates. Only this one particular trope strikes me as sufficiently invalid to warrant my response.
A variant of that might be that God can see all the various branches of the “multiple worlds” that branch out from every possible decision made by every person. There’s the world where you enlisted in the military…and the world where you didn’t… Each of those breaks down into further and further “what if” universes.
We can only see one track of this vast branching maze, but perhaps God can see them all.
It still doesn’t help resolve Voyager’s question about God’s omnipotence/omniscience, as this would involve the diverging branches being cut/snipped/grafted and/or re-introduced to each other. As they said in Ghostbusters, “Don’t cross the streams!”
The multiversal interpretation could allow God, on Judgement Day, to assess our spiritual condition in all worlds. “We” as individuals, are, to God, a vast branching network, an envelope of all the things we might have done. We might meet his favor by having more probabilities of nice things in this vast tree, and incur his disfavor by being more probable to have done rotten things.
After all, if we’re judged on what we think, rather than what we do, why not extend this and judge us on what we might have done, as if that were an actual completed action in some other universe?
It might not seem fair to judge us by our alternative selves…but, seriously, is it fair to judge us by the dumb things we did when we were twenty-two years old? The same blanket injustice applies: that wasn’t “me” in the sense of who I am today!
It also never dawns on them that if God is incomprehensible, then they can’t logically claim that they know that God is a good being to follow in the first place.
Okay then, bias is synonymous with belief in all cases and delusion in some, because not all biases are found on equal evidence.
Other than believing the bible literally, what other delusions are there? I mean the laws of physics aren’t necessarily applicable since we don’t know how a deity operates, and our laws of physics don’t explain everything wholly. Our laws of physics essentially amount to: if we do x, then y will surely happen. They don’t truly explain anything, they are just standards for predicting outcomes on matters under certain circumstances. According to general definitions, a deity is not limited by a body with the same physical limitations as us. How is god belief delusional in and of itself?
From other misguided people.
Same for a bias then. If you can’t prove it, then you’re delusional.
It is stretching the truth to claim that all belief in a deity is a delusion same as saying all biases are a delusion.
Because you are not privy to that life experience, you think yours is enough to determine the truth for everybody else. There are many a person wiser and smarter than both of us who “know” that a deity exists.
Do you purposely mis-characterize me? I said there is a distinct possibility, that is all. I guarantee you that “the flood” is based on a real flood. I shouldn’t even have to say this, but for you I need to: Whether or not a person did what Noah was said to have done, to any extent, is unknown.
Umm no, you are playing games with my statements. 30% is not a majority.
This is a guess at best. You again are discussing matters of ignorance and lack of education. People all over the world believe all sorts of wild things, that have nothing to do with religion, to be truth when they are nothing more than myths… Why you ask? Ignorance and poor education, it’s not to be blamed on the person or the lore that told them the story. Not in this day and age at least.
Is this the only card you have to play? “You don’t understand?” You’re the one who doesn’t understand. How do I know that? Because you are looking down your nose at believers with every remark. Your argument is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that all spirituality is a fantasy. You assume people are irrational, because you have never experienced what they have experienced.
Convenient for you. And not even an apology for being obnoxiously careless… I think this will be my last post to you as you are clearly biased beyond normal interaction.
I think you are making presumptions beyond your own experience. When you word it that way it sounds counter-intuitive, but I’m sure you did that on purpose to dismiss any idea that it does provide a fresh perspective.
No average person devotes years to benevolent anti-smoking campaigns… Please don’t pretend that the average American is some sort of saint that spends time much more wisely than a bible study teacher. Just take a step back and think about what you’re saying, most people are so exhausted from their jobs or so self-centered, the last thing on their mind is regularly helping others.
Sorry, I thought it was intuitive. Spending time at the church = community service, the rewards of teaching and helping others, friendship, socially stimulating, fulfilling, etc. etc.
This is a red herring. Religious negligence on a historic level is not relevant. It is merely an example of misguided people of power.
Also, you have dismissed them, you have said their experiences with a deity are merely fantasy, so even if they have truly had contact with a deity, you would ignore them. That is pure dismissal.
Are we studying God or are we studying belief systems? If the former, then we need to be logical and rational. If the latter, we need to be aware that the systems are not logical and rational, and we have to study them as they are.
In our behavioral engineering economics course we show an example of a math problem which people get different answers to if expressed in different ways. (The math is hidden, of course.) Understanding why this is is important - but that doesn’t change what the right answer is.
But your point is very common in reviews of new atheist books in respectable places, like the Times. Dawkins gives reasons for believing it is unlikely that any God exists, and, to make it interesting, talks about fervent believers; The reviewer says the book is invalid because he isn’t like that - and never addresses the real argument.
Nice people can believe in utter bollocks. Doesn’t mean the bollocks is any more true.
On the other hand it happens to believers also. Plus in the 17 years I’ve been here there has been exactly one tornado in San Jose.
It headed straight for a church. 
(No one was hurt.)
To be fair, the all knowing creator of the universe often says exactly the same stuff that you can find in any book in the self-help section of any bookstore.
True - I was referring more to the things he reveals to Moses or to Priests, etc - I would take your statement and go one step further -
“He always reveals what I want to hear or already know/agree with”
YoungKusher - your last post makes it clear that we do not share enough common ground, or perhaps language, to continue in a meaningful debate or discussion, I will not be responding to your latest rant except to say that you still, quite clearly, don’t understand the very simple points I have been raising and your arguments against them are not well reasoned. Have a pleasant day.
Indeed, Existence has to be, before anything could exist. If one or something isn’t in existence it can’t exist.
This encompasses my point or points. Sure we an look at just god belief in a purely objective way and see that there is zero evidence and then say quite correctly that there is no good reason to believe in god from a scientific objective and logical standpoint. How useful is that observation, considering humans don’t generally operate in that narrow framework? OTOH we can observe that all belief systems operate on some type of faith, {trust} and are both emotion and intellect, and all a bit irrational at times. IMO, that means the atheist, agnostic and believer operate with many of the same human traits. Irrational athiests pointing out that god belief is irrational seems pointless.
Pretty useful. Humans have been known to change their viewpoints based on science and logical standpoints. My brother and several friends have given up their theism based on arguments they have heard from me and several web pages they have read. It took a while, but it happened. I recall there being at least two posters on this board who have become atheists while here.
As you’re aware, “faith” has more than one meaning. That atheists can have trust in another or a thing, has nothing to do with the type of faith a religious person has.
I don’t consider my emotions either rational or irrational; it’s what I do with them that is sometimes one or the other. I’m not aware of any beliefs I have that are irrational, but behaving irrationally in an emotional state isn’t in the same ballpark as having an irrational belief that one admits is faith based.
It seems you just used the old “atheists have one type of faith, so they’re just as irrational as theists” type of nonsense I’ve read several times before from theists. Even if it were true, I don’t see how it makes pointing out the irrationality of god belief pointless. Does one need to be a perfectly rational being in order for a rational argument to be valid? I’m not an irrational atheist. YMMV.
But compare god belief to other irrational beliefs. We don’t have powerfully placed astrologers telling astronomers that they should teach the controversy. When Nancy Reagan consulted an astrologer it was pretty much universally laughed at. When George W. Bush said Jesus advised him it wasn’t.
There are tons of astrological systems. Have they all been falsified? If most children got taught it was correct, if political leaders said that they would make decisions only after consulting their charts, then we might have a similar problem.
People have followed astrology longer than they have followed Western religions, and it has been more consistent. Why not give astrology equal footing to religion?
No, most would think that this is silly, but most have not been brought up imbued with astrology, and astrology isn’t treated with the respect that religion gets, but does not deserve.
Why the special treatment of religion? Horoscopes go on the funny pages, with the comics and the Jumble. Religion news should go there too.
While this addresses a very important issue in regards to many Christians and other theists, I want to be clear in saying that the subjective evidence I’m referring to is not limited to miracles. I agree that virtually any miracle could be systematically explained by science if given the proper opportunity, but I do not entirely dismiss the possibility of a miracle. What I’m saying is there is no evidence to suggest that a deity didn’t make said miracle or event happen on purpose for a reason that is distinct to the theist.
Random example: If a theist prayed one morning to a deity for their son to overcome his drug-addiction after many fruitless attempts to do it themselves, then by dinner time the son had willingly admitted himself to a rehab center after swearing he would never go and would never need to go, this would be an example of subjective evidence in the form of confirmation bias. Then the son goes on to stay in the rehab center for 6 weeks and has essentially over-come his addiction. This is the type of subjective evidence that a believer may hold dear at the foundation of their belief. It cannot be explained, in a satisfactory manner by science, why the son went on his own to admit himself the very same day the parent prayed for it, so the believer is left with a sense of loyalty (and true belief) to said deity.
Agreed, but a Christian would simply say “blessed are the ones who believe without seeing [Christ in person]”
While I appreciate your point because it is a valid one, many bars serve food and it doesn’t make them any better. Now that I think about it, most bars serve food. There are plenty of uptown bars that are sophisticated/classy and I’m sure the statistics of convicted criminals in attendance are significantly lower than the dive bar on the south side. However, I think it’s safe to say that the average track record of patrons found in a bar is going to be statistically lower than most other places.
At first glance, this statistic is compelling, but I myself have spent some time in jail(a couple months for a DUI) and from first hand experience noticed that many people don’t find their faith until they are facing years in prison. When you are stripped of the privilege of freedom and control over your own life, it is very common for people to turn to faith to get them through the trying times. Compare the 93% statistic with the statistic of those same people from before they were convicted, and I think you will see a drastic difference.
I saw many young gang-bangers aged 17-25 who had a federal case against them and were looking at serving 15-20 years. Under those circumstances, many without a high school diploma even, it is to be expected they will develop faith. All of the old gang-bangers or people who have spent their lives in and out of correctional institutes, are pretty much religious and teach it to the younger folks so that they will have a coping mechanism to get them through the long, hard road ahead of them.
Yes, and I would not be surprised if people who claimed affiliation with a religious sect made up the majority of current criminals in Europe. Often times, people can have a hard life, and turn to religion as a coping mechanism as a result of their incarceration. There are some who use religion as an excuse to do the things they do, but more times than not, this is an example of people bending religion to their own will.
Same thing for African-Americans in the US. Being a minority here and also occupying a proportionately larger population in jail/prison doesn’t have a direct correlation with religion, but clearly is a result of oppression. It’s difficult to say how much of a cause Islam is in regards to incarceration percentages when like you said, there are so many other factors.
I know that, that is not my point at all. I was specifically referring to all of the moments and experiences that have caused/embody the reasons for their faith. So many people claim to have spiritual experiences, well, what is it that they are all experiencing? It surely can’t be explained by saying it is just a fantasy or a delusion. There has to be something to all this. Even if it’s not a deity’s presence they are experiencing, there still has to be an explanation more satisfying than, “Theists are just delusional.” I refuse to believe that most of the world has been simply misguided or is delusional and all the atheists are the ones who have it figured out. There could quite easily be dimensions/aspects of the universe that we are blissfully unaware of that completely explain all of spirituality.
I appreciate your matter-of-fact way of speaking. It’s refreshing when you’ve been under barrage from many who are biased in their beliefs.
You “noticed” that many people in jail were atheists before they got there? I find that difficult to believe.
Since, by this reasoning, there could be no “existence,” and since at least one of us here happens actually to exist, the principle you lay down must be incorrect.