I asked you to just answer the question, without asking me what I’m getting at
Tie it to the thread first, and I definitely will.
When it comes to claiming the existence of magic and miracles, gods and spirits they are. As demonstrated by history they are guaranteed to be wrong.
No, they aren’t magic so they are irrelevant to the argument that the supernatural doesn’t exist.
A scenario which is pretty much the opposite of how claims of mystical and miraculous phenomena work. You don’t have unanimous agreement among “eye witnesses”; on the contrary, you have massive disagreement about what happened, if anything happened, and who if anyone did it.
Plus, a claim of murder doesn’t violate physical laws, and there’s a dead body to explain. As opposed to claims of miracles and magic where there’s no evidence anything happened in the first place, just baseless claims.
No, I asked you first. I’m not gonna play games.
It sounds like you’re not interested in the subject anyways, or not taking it seriously
Putting out an attempted “gotcha” question like that and refusing to explain why is playing games.
Okay whatever Trihs, but for someone who doesnt believe in this subject you sure spend a lot of time posting in this thread
But the believers refuse to leave everyone else alone. My lack of belief won’t stop them from trying to force other people to live their life according to their dogma, or harassing, harming or killing other people in the name of their fantasies.
The games are yours and yours alone. If you are trying to use it as a analogy it’s a poor one. People who believe they have experienced OBes and/or NDEs do not give the same description, and the descriptions they do give often fly in the face of reality. By the way, in the simplistic murder scenario you put forth, I wouldn’t convict until I heard testimony as to the veracity of the witnesses and the defense’s case-or in other words, the whole story.
As far as the thread about NDEs/OBEs you formerly showed interest in, I suspect that you don’t want to talk about it unless only people that support you are allowed to participate in it…but I could be proven wrong easily.
I’m not forcing anything on you, Trihs. If anything you’re the one who keeps quoting me and pushing your skeptic opinion on me. Go back to the earlier posts in this thread, its you who first quoted me, not the other way around:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17108484&postcount=755
I asked you a very simple question, you’re too afraid to answer it. I’m not the one playing games.
Anyways, I’ll give you and Trihs the last word. I’m done with it
I don’t disagree. But as for the OBO/NDE thing, I don’t think people are calling it magic or supernatural. You’re the one who labeled it as such. It is simply without a sound scientific explanation at the moment, that does not make it a miracle, or magic, or wrong.
Like I said, once it has been shown to be real, it is no longer a miracle, or magical, or supernatural.
“No, no, I’ve been through this movie before.” - Dylan.
:dubious: This is Great Debates. Not “Agrees with Esco”.
They can call it what they like; it’s still a supernatural claim.
Only because magic and miracles are never real. If magic really worked then it would still be magic even while science was studying it.
Don’t bother; it’s all been done before, a dozen times over.
Sorry, but this is a load of nonsense. If the mind actually left the body, as you describe, it would be able to bring back observations of reality – “What is inside this locked box.” No one has ever accomplished any such feat. There is simply zero objective evidence for this.
At present the “null hypothesis” is that people who experience this effect are hallucinating. It is up to you to produce evidence that allows us to reject the null hypothesis.
Don’t bother posting it here. We aren’t a science journal. If you have actual hard data, put it into proper scientific form and get it published by someone with some standing. We, here, will review it as amateurs and armchair philosophers, the same way we discuss global warming.
I hate it when people with only a vague understanding of scientific concepts use them to push their woo.
Weigh a body before and after death. The weight is the same. Mary Roach has a big section on this in Stiff. The energy in your body is the same.
The chemical reactions of life stop. Other reactions continue or begin, as your body rots. No loss of energy. Energy is not destroyed when you turn off a light, same thing here.
Okay: yes. That sounds like sufficient evidence to convict.
My turn: suppose that thousands of people saw entirely different things while they were asleep. Some had lucid dreams. Some had hallucinations. Some had premonitions which didn’t come true. Some heard voices of people who were dead…but these voices never told them anything concrete. Always, “I love you son,” but not, “The combination to my safe is 55-12-9.” None of these effects could be verified objectively. Many contradict each other.
Would that stand up in a court of law (or a journal of science?)
Which can potentially be explained by science as a naturally occurring phenomena, that may or may not be what people believe it to be.
Yupp.
:rolleyes: Souls and the like are entirely imaginary, based on pure fantasy with no evidence to back it up. If something turns out to be real that isn’t like what people think souls are like, then it isn’t souls at all but something else. You can’t just pick any random new discovery and claim it’s a soul even though it doesn’t resemble a soul in any way.
I do not think that expression means what you think it means.
Did anyone here actually use the word “soul” other than you? It’s entirely possible that consciousness is not bound to the brain. We talked about this before and the facts remain the same. It has never been shown what causes consciousness to arise. We know that it exists in the brain and that the brain is a functioning requirement for consciousness as we know it. There might be an element to the universe we haven’t discovered yet that is also a requirement for consciousness.
Maybe something if this nature could explain what people call the “astral plane.”