I meant that i don’t care, in a legal sense.
Do you think that every action you disagree with should be a criminal offense? Or only ones that gore your particular sacred oxen?
Fake Marine in full uniform at his High School reunion is found out by classmate & arrested With pic
I’ve never been in the military but this pisses me off and I am fine with it being illegal. I hate it when people claim things that they didn’t earn that others worked their ass of to earn. The same goes for the worthless shitbags who claim to have academic degrees or certifications that they never earned. Those people deserve no end of humiliation and scorn.
Criminalizing military impostors says more about American society than it does about the impostors themselves. The “Stolen Valor” laws could rightly be called “We’re sorry we (supposedly) crapped on the Vietnam vets so we’re making it up to them by coming down like a ton of bricks on the sad little wanna-bees” law.
Can we make less-severe but statuatory nonetheless laws to cover the vets who actually did serve, but but grossly inflate their service? All the guys who said they were shot at (but weren’t) or spit on (but weren’t)? You could paint an 18-wheeler trailer police blue and back it up to my dad’s American Legion Post, for all the patent bullshit those old guys sling.
Even the Germans have a better sense of humor about this sort of thing. When you look like a grouch compared to the Germans, you really do have a problem.
Continues to beg the question.
Does disliking something, for you, mean that it should be illegal? Does believing someone has acted like a shitbag justify putting them in prison? Why isn’t humiliation and scorn enough?
Also, the academic degrees and certifications thing is different, because those are generally used to achieve some sort of pecuniary advantage, such as a job, or a higher salary. Simply claiming that you hold a PhD (or whatever) is not a crime, unless you try to use that fact to defraud someone of something.
As i’ve already said, i’m happy with it being illegal to use a claim of military service to gain some benefit for which you would not otherwise qualify.
I think they should make him join the Marines.
I never said that it was rational, mhendo.
Whoa - how’s this for strange. I just saw a news story that says he appeared in court to enter his plea, accompanied by “his partner and his attorney.” Link.
Commence with the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell jokes.
Fair enough. I understand the visceral reaction.
But laws rely, in considerable measure, on the support of the people, and i don’t think that general popular disgust or annoyance with an action should be sufficient cause to make it illegal. We shouldn’t say that we’re going to throw someone in prison simply for doing something that we don’t like, especially when what he’s doing is really nothing more than a form of expression that causes no material harm to anyone.
In a nation that values freedom of expression, you have the right to call someone a shitbird or a moron, and to ridicule them for what they say and do, but you don’t have the right not to be offended. I adopt the same logic in arguing against laws outlawing hate speech (except in cases where it is a direct incitement to violence).
I hope you get a definitive answer to this. I have one as well, though not from a relative (the Paul Dubois Victory Angel version) and kind of wanted to wear it as a pendant on a necklace. Should I not do this? I wouldn’t want to run afoul of the law or offend anyone who actually is a veteran or has a relative who earned that specific medal.
Edit, just to clarify: I have no intention of making people think I’m a member of the armed forces (not that I have to actually disabuse people of that notion - it’s obvious just from looking at me that I’m not and never have been) or to disrespect those who are/were. I just think it’s beautiful.
I’d argue that this is different. It’s quite a stretch, IMO, to say that Joe Schmo wearing the unearned uniform and medals is “expressing” himself. He’s actively and fraudulently trying to pass himself off as something he’s not. Not a big deal if he’s impersonating a plumber, but that’s not a volunteer service which defends the country at risk of your life. I’d be happy to support any law that outlaws impersonation of police, firefighters, military, etc.
This is why I’m fine with people wearing awards out of remembrance. These people aren’t going to lie about where the award came from if asked.
In the eighties I used to buy old medals from antique stores, etc., and wear them basically as jewelry on my military surplus jackets and coats. It was a pretty common style in the eighties.
Sigh.
I’ve already said that i support laws against impersonating a police officer, or some other public official in the performance of their duty. Their are immediate public safety concerns that make such laws necessary. Wearing a military uniform and medals to a party? Completely different.
Wow, that’s a fucked up law.
“Let’s honor those who fought and died protecting the Constitution by wiping our asses with it!”
“But hey, at least we got to send some douche-bag to jail for deprecating our soldiers. They’re tough as nails on the battlefield, but are such extreme emotional pussies that they need our help!”
Yeah, douche-bag douche-bag douche-bag, gotcha. But criminal douche-baggery?
Anyone know if this piece of shit law has passed an Appeals court? I’d love to read the opinion.
There are two different federal offenses that are being conflated here: impersonating a member of the military and wearing unearned awards.
While I strongly think that both of these deceptions should be against the law (which is currently the case), if we are going to discuss the merits of the laws in question, it would be helpful to discuss the two issues separately.
Allowing people to impersonate members of our Armed Forces could have real national security implications. Just like we have laws prohibiting someone from impersonating a police officer, we have laws prohibiting people from impersonating members of the military. I would think it would be obvious why allowing this (which is what decriminalization equates to) is a bad idea. Marine Corps officer command Marines. U.S. Marines guard the President, military installations, embassies, nuclear weapons, etc. It is a really bad idea to allow fake Marine officers to be running around with impunity.
The other issue is that of wearing unearned medals. This is less of a case of having national security implications and more of a “stolen valor” issue. While I also think that this should be illegal, I will admit that this is somewhat of an emotional reaction. Allowing people to wear unearned medals debases the awards in question, just like counterfeit money debases currency.
Compared to what this guy supposedly did, you’re not even close to the line.
After reading your comment I understand better why it’s illegal to impersonate a member of the Armed Forces. I still think that intent should be considered when levying charges against somebody. In this case, I think the guy is a douchetard but I don’t think he should be charged with a criminal offense.
Well, that and the fact that the guy was wearing pretty much every medal ever awarded in the history of organized warfare. All he needed were a few Battlestar Galactica medals and a commendation from President Roslin to top it off.
If you’re going to fake being a soldier, try to aim a little lower than Alexander the Great.
Ordinary service people are pretty ordinary. Can be, anyway. I’ve known folks in the U.S. and Canadian armed services you would never pick out, unless they were in uniform, as “Hey, there’s a soldier.” Including myself.
You can plop almost anyone in a uniform and they’d pass muster just to look at them. Where this guy failed was in trying to look like Audie Murphy, which is going to set off anyone’s alarm bells and would make it very, very easy to poke holes in his backstory.
Oh, bullshit.
You accuse me of conflating laws, and then go ahead an conflate complete different situation. We’re not talking about a guy trying to get access to classified materials here; we’re talking about a moron at a school reunion. I have no trouble with laws forbidding the impersonating of a military officer in cases where the impersonation has any security or true authority implications. But some idiot walking around the mall or going to a party in uniform does not make for a security crisis.
Also, are you telling me that someone turning up to an embassy or a marine corps base or the White House in a uniform would gain access on the strength of the uniform alone? No papers, no orders, no identification, no cross-checking of a list that permits access to certain persons, and not to others?
If that’s the case, then i submit that this country has bigger fucking security problems than some douchebag wearing a uniform to a school reunion. If all it takes to breach our national security is some pressed green pants and a short haircut, then we’re in big trouble.
No such things as “stolen valor,” except in the minds of Orwellian doublespeakers, and your currency analogy is completely ridiculous.
I don’t have a problem with people wearing their relatives’ medals in ANZAC Day/Armistice Day/Other Military Memorial Services events (it’s actually encouraged here as a way of getting “the younger generation” involved in it) but pretending to be a soldier with medals at a social event like a school reunion? Dick move.
I’m not sure I support it being illegal (except in the cases of Outstanding Valour medals like the Victoria Cross, perhaps), although I can understand why it is.
Point taken but in the real world people get complacent and “looking right” will get you past a surprising amount of security. I was helping our property management division out this spring, and just carrying a clipboard would get me into the back rooms and offices of practically any office and store in the strip malls we managed (where I was often left alone while they went to tend to the business up front) and I was never ONCE asked for an ID. Granted I look kind of authoritative, but still that clipboard was a magic totem.